Auto 4 Bangers for RVs

I was just cruising Bud Warren's site here and see he has a drive for supercharged 205hp Ecotecs now. http://www.geareddrives.com/engines.html
Sounds like a pretty lightweight package.

He is still selling the V8 stuff as well and there is talk of one of the Reno front runners maybe being Chevrolet big block powered next year- Nemesis or Lancair? Should be interesting.

BTW we are about to take delivery of a 405hp LS6 for our V8 EFI/ distributorless ignition engine development program. I'll post our results and dyno numbers in a couple months hopefully. I had great service from: http://www.crateenginedepot.com/ and I'd highly recommend them if you are in need of a GM crate engine.

rv6ejguy said:

BTW we are about to take delivery of a 405hp LS6 for our V8 EFI/ distributorless ignition engine development program. I'll post our results and dyno numbers in a couple months hopefully. I had great service from: http://www.crateenginedepot.com/ and I'd highly recommend them if you are in need of a GM crate engine.

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What are you going to attach it to?

If I were building an RV10, I would have to seriously consider Bud's setup on the LS1 Chev. I have seen it run and it is sooooooooo smooth. With 350hp it would really tug around a 10.

TSwezey said:

What are you going to attach it to?

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It will be on a test stand to validate the new EFI/ ignition setup and be used as a mockup for engineering the crank sensor setup. Going on a dyno after that to look at hp numbers and shoot a video for marketing then- I'll have an LS6 for sale I guess. It has given me sick thoughts of doing a kit for RV10s though. I think with the right drive, weight could be close to that of an IO-540. An EPI, Marcotte or Warren drive would still keep this at about half the cost of a new Lycoming. Performance would be impressive, 260hp at about 4000 rpm -just loafin'.

For Rocket lads, the rumored 600hp 6.2L LS9 would melt the paint and give them a chance to take the world time to climb records.

rv6ejguy said:

For Rocket lads, the rumored 600hp 6.2L LS9 would melt the paint and give them a chance to take the world time to climb records.

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I have had a couple of rocket/EVO wing builders call me about the LS engines just because they needed a little more nose weight.

As I have been working more and more on the auto conversion and I also think that the combo can be made in mass quantities for less than the Lycosauras. I think one could take Tracy Crooks (yours when you get it done) control system, Bud Warren's PSRU and a stock LS2 and make it work for less than $20,000. The non-off the shelf items right now would be the cowl and the engine mount which could be fabricated by someone. Well, right now, just got to get what I got working right!

rv6ejguy said:

I was just cruising Bud Warren's site here and see he has a drive for supercharged 205hp Ecotecs now. http://www.geareddrives.com/engines.html
Sounds like a pretty lightweight package.

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Ross...

Does the supercharger belt on this package make you nervous? I won't even ask DD what he thinks about that.

I couldn't tell from the web site...do you know if Geared Drives PSRU's allow for a traditional oil-driven CS prop? I would assume not...except that the 3blade prop on the Express looks to have Hartzell blades.

Your post prompted me to find the NTSB summary on Bud's Express that went down last October: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20071106X01740&key=1

The ruptured fuel line points to another hazard of the high-pressure fuel injected systems for aircraft, eh?

Dan
Chicago
RV-9A Empennage

I'd dump the supercharger and install a turbo personally but I'd have no worries about using an OEM designed and mounted system.

Yes, Bud's PSRUs have hydraulic prop capability as do EPI's and Marcottes and another new one about to be tested so this is no longer a valid beef.

I've said this before, you really have to watch braided stainless hose with aluminum tube elbow fittings. These must be well supported. I prefer steel fittings, they are much stronger and have vastly better fatigue and fire resistance. I doubt if the actual stainless braided hose failed in the middle.

I think a broken fuel line on any aircraft firewall forward is very serious- higher pressures with FI just make it a bit worse. OEMs in the auto world use good old rubber fuel hose (burst rated at 900 psi) and hose clamps for good reason- it is very reliable with billions of hours of proven use. I use this with fire sleeve instead of braided line in most parts of my aircraft.

Todd, if I was doing it all over again, I'd be very tempted to use an LS6 and strive to keep things as light as possible. Looks like 500 lbs. dressed with redrive is quite possible, add maybe 35-40 for rad, scoop and coolant. Use a composite prop and you'd come out about 50 lbs. heavier overall I think than the IO. It is just so attractive to take a new $5K engine, bolt it to a $8-10K PSRU, add another $2-3K of accessories and fly it. If it wears out in 1000 hours, just plug in another longblock for $3K.

It is just so attractive to take a new $5K engine, bolt it to a $8-10K PSRU, add another $2-3K of accessories and fly it. If it wears out in 1000 hours, just plug in another longblock for $3K.


Sounds great...anyone actually done that?

Jconard said:

It is just so attractive to take a new $5K engine, bolt it to a $8-10K PSRU, add another $2-3K of accessories and fly it. If it wears out in 1000 hours, just plug in another longblock for $3K.


Sounds great...anyone actually done that?

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Some of us are working on it but we are also building the planes at the same time. My plane is being painted and the prop and PSRU have to be shipped back to manufacturer for some modifications. In a few years it will be a reality of plug-n-play components for the engine combo's. Right now, everything is more or less in the development/testing stages.

Auto 4 Bangers for RV's

It is just so attractive to take a new $5K engine, bolt it to a $8-10K PSRU, add another $2-3K of accessories and fly it. If it wears out in 1000 hours, just plug in another longblock for $3K.


Sounds great...anyone actually done that?

Most people sign off with the plane they are building and what stage they are at. Should we just call you Mr. Negative????

Steve A
RV 7A Finishing
Primed Fairings this Weekend

EPI has done many installations mainly in Lancairs. Maybe if someone approached them for an RV10 installation they would be interested. IMO, EPI is a step above all the other PSRU vendors with their realistic, detailed and scientific approach to alternative engines. They have the tools, experience and knowledge to do it all correctly.

Their Mark 15 PSRU is around $9500. The complete crate LS6 is $5500. Add an ECU, fuel system and radiator setup for another $3000, a custom mount for $2000-$3000 hopefully. Ask Sam James nicely for a cowling to fit it all and... we have the technology.

There will be some labor involved to hook it all up and build a duct, exhaust etc. but you'd have the building blocks for about half the price of a new bare IO-540.

If EPI did the whole FF shot, I don't doubt it would be in the $40K bracket but it would be cool.

Most people sign off with the plane they are building and what stage they are at. Should we just call you Mr. Negative????

Love to see it DONE, not planned. As long as I can remember, it has been "simple" to bolt a cheap engine to a cheap mount etcc... and fly off into the horizon.

Would love to live in such a world. It is not this world.


I was actually being a little facitious , because if ANYONE knows that is wishful thinking, it has to be Ross, and frankly I thought that he might have been a little tongue in cheek as well.

205HP?

rv6ejguy said:

I was just cruising Bud Warren's site here and see he has a drive for supercharged 205hp Ecotecs now.

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I have seen the engine used by a few hot rods and a little vintage race car replica. Cool engine. It's only been around since 2003, first in non-supercharger form, making only 115 hp, than 145 hp. It comes in GM cars like the Cobalt or Cavalier (small-med compact sedans). The original non-supercharged versions had the reputation for being a dog, but the superchargered version comes in the 'SS' models; it gets a pass or good review on acceleration, in a compact.

No one here believes it will produce 205 HP at the prop, like an angle valve IO360, do they? Its only a tad over 2-liter, a 360 cu-in is almost 6 liter. There ain't no replacement for displacement. I think when we talk engine we should talk REAL numbers at the PROP not what GM publishes. The REAL number at the prop, all day and night with ease and reliability is?

The car rating is 205HP @ sea level, near red line RPM with a supercharger! Superchargers heat the air as it compresses it. At sea level that is fine, but as you climb the air gets thinner and there is less air to cool. Keeping the power/boost up with out temp problems is unlikely. The engineers designed enough cooling for sea level, not WOT ops at altitude. HP will fall off as you climb, just like an atmo engine. It uses the supercharger because IT NEEDS IT. It's not a bonus. Supercharged Subies have a similar temp issue. To make 205HP with 2.2 liter, is hard work. There's no fat, it's all she has. You can't violate physics, size matters. Indy race engines can turn 15,000 rpm, but even they limit Revs to 10,300 for life.

Wait till their experimental Mooney Mite (single seater) project gets some hours on engine and PSRU, before you write a check. The PSRU looks massive. Even bud says just engine and PSRU is 300 lbs!

May be a RV9 would be happy with it, since it might make 120 HP(?) at the prop max reliably while keeping engine RPM's reasonable. After making a custom engine mount, PSRU and cooling system, I estimate it the installed weight will be more than an O235, while making same/less real and usable power.