Collision avoidance ? Which way to turn?

Sunday I was flying with a friend when we spotted an Arrow maneuvering 500 feet above our altitude. We were heading due east and he was at our 11 O?clock position and turning right. At the time we spotted him he was also heading east but in mid turn.

My friend, who is also a pilot saw him first and wanted me to turn to the right away from him. I elected to descend and turn left, towards him. I chose to go this route so I could keep an eye on him (Thanks Van?s for the glass ceiling!) and to minimize the time we were close together.

This move caused us to fly directly under him, which in hindsight, I?m not real happy with but at least it allowed me to keep him in site until we were clear of him.

My friend wanted me to turn right, which would have raised my left wing and forced me to loose sight of him when I?m not sure the Arrow even knew we where there. That would have put him behind us and possibly in a position to catch us from behind.

Two other pieces of information that is relevant, the Arrow in question is based at our home field and is used for training so we knew he wasn?t a transient but was someone practicing maneuvers and this all happened around 5,000 feet AGL.

I post this not to ask who was right or wrong but rather to ask if I took the correct action. It is possible that since the Arrow was maneuvering he could have stalled as we passed underneath him.

What are your thoughts and opinions?

correct action

N941WR said:

Sunday I was flying with a friend when we spotted an Arrow maneuvering 500 feet above our altitude. We were heading due east and he was at our 11 O?clock position and turning right. At the time we spotted him he was also heading east but in mid turn.

My friend, who is also a pilot saw him first and wanted me to turn to the right away from him. I elected to descend and turn left, towards him. I chose to go this route so I could keep an eye on him (Thanks Van?s for the glass ceiling!) and to minimize the time we were close together.

This move caused us to fly directly under him, which in hindsight, I?m not real happy with but at least it allowed me to keep him in site until we were clear of him.

My friend wanted me to turn right, which would have raised my left wing and forced me to loose sight of him when I?m not sure the Arrow even knew we where there. That would have put him behind us and possibly in a position to catch us from behind.

Two other pieces of information that is relevant, the Arrow in question is based at our home field and is used for training so we knew he wasn?t a transient but was someone practicing maneuvers and this all happened around 5,000 feet AGL.

I post this not to ask who was right or wrong but rather to ask if I took the correct action. It is possible that since the Arrow was maneuvering he could have stalled as we passed underneath him.

What are your thoughts and opinions?

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Hi Bill. We all know the procedure...turn right when approaching oncoming traffic. That being said, as PIC you should make whatever maneuver neccesary to avoid a collision based on circumstances presented at the time. You are here with us today because you made the right decision. Seems your decision to keep the approaching aircraft in sight was prudent...

regards...Chris

i was at an airport and an ultralight and a cessna were both on final for the same runway. the cessna was high and ultralight was low and both were looking to land on the same spot. neither saw the other of course. someone started to wave off..................he was trying to get the cessna to see him and abort. i stopped him immediately and asked what would he feel like if the ultralight saw him and pulled up into the cessna? or what if the cessna saw you and dove down because he thought someone was landing over the top of him? all the what ifs weren't going to work. no one had a radio!
well, they both landed and neither had any mishap with the other. the cessna was doing t&g's so he never knew what was up until he landed and had an ultralight pilot in his face!!!!
ugly scene. we separated them and thanked GOD nothing happened other than everyone hopefully learned something of value!
fred

What a great question. I've had the same question for years. The "turn right" procedure works great if both pilots see each other. But it sounds like in this case only one saw the other and a right turn would've resulted in losing sight of the other. That's a really tough situation, you've described. I certainly can't fault your decision. I probably instinctively would've turned right, in a descending turn and firewalled the throttle.

But what if he has stopped his turn and descended. and what if he was a faster plane? Now there's somebody out there possibly on top of me, and I don't know where he is.

Man, that's a tough one.

Rules of Thumb

These "rules of thumb" are just that. If you think a better reaction is safer, then by all means, go with your gut.
Even if these rules were hard rules, remember, you can break any rule for safety sake.

I've came close, VOR airways, limits to see & be seen

See and be seen, big sky theory....but planes still find a way to hit each other. You saw him he did not see you so you maneuvered as need to maintain separation. Nothing wring with that. "See and Avoid"

Here's a classic AC: LINK (see pdf pg 9). It takes 12 seconds to see, react and affect an evasive maneuver. At 360 mph closing at 2 miles you may only have 20 seconds. So if you are messing with your EFIS head down you may be missing that near by plane.

I still can see the rivets on the belly of the Beech V-tailed devil Bonanza decades later. I was a student pilot on long solo long cross country, on proper altitude for the hemispherical cruising rule, 7,500 ft on an airway, getting close to the airport I just starting down. As the nose dropped and started down I saw this devil Bonanza right flash over me, opposite direction in a climb. I was VFR rules in clear conditions and the Bonanza was who knows. I should have seen the Bonanza sooner I guess but he was under my nose and may be blended with the ground. Also the front profile of a plane directly ahead at 3 miles is not much to see. I was using flight following and they said nothing (lesson traffic is not always called out right). It was not until I started down, lowering the nose did I see Mr. Vee-tail. I have doubts he saw me or bothered to look. I pushed down harder and the Fork-tailed-devil went right over me, way too close. Some times doing everything right can get you killed. By right I mean proper altitude, airway & flt following. There are real limitations to the SEE and BE SEEN theory. I learned that early.

When VFR I don't fly exact VFR hard alt+500 ft any more. I also avoid airway center-lines VFR. This was before GPS direct anywhere. We use to fly with VOR's kids! If I have to be on an airway VFR, I'll fly slightly upwind. Yes planes actually drift downwind slightly when tracking a VOR needle due to tollerances. With GPS digital stuff now, planes flying very precisly, which may be a bad thing, at least from a midair standpoint.

When you think about it, the sky gets smaller when you fly on the same airway between VOR's. Still keep in mind staying right on airways, especially near VORs, can be a killer. Don't climb or descend VFR on airways if you can. If on airway level at proper altitude fine, but climbs and descents throw a monkey wrench in the works. My instructor did not tell me this, but than that is what experience is. Also planes coming right at you are small and hard to see. I did have a slight excuse in that I was looking more or less to the south with the sun in my eyes, but excuses don't buy much if you hit. A local freight pilot flying VFR in a single engine hit a very high TV broadcast tower in a rural area flying into the sun a few years ago. Why he was not higher I don't know but the eyes have limits. A Army chopper did the same thing last year. The point is pilots fly into fixed and fairly large objects all the time.

I don't have any suggestion or moral to the story only stuff happens and read the book "Fate is the Hunter", By Ernest K. Gann. I am sure that V-tailed driver never saw me or bothered to look. I was at proper altitude and NAV but it was too close. Those cheap traffic collision devices, poor man TCAS, is a great safety device. All planes should have them. The eyes have too many limitations.

VETE76 said:

No one had a radio!

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And I'm tired of the NO radio b.s....

IMO, in this day and age of cheap portable battery operated radios, and crowded sky's; it ought to be the law! Including ultra-lights!!!

I live under an un-controlled airport pattern, and have witnessed thoughtless behavior "with" a radio; but having no radio, only makes it worse.

L.Adamson

N941WR said:

My friend, who is also a pilot saw him first and wanted me to turn to the right away from him. I elected to descend and turn left, towards him. I chose to go this route so I could keep an eye on him (Thanks Van?s for the glass ceiling!) and to minimize the time we were close together.

This move caused us to fly directly under him, which in hindsight, I?m not real happy with but at least it allowed me to keep him in site until we were clear of him.


What are your thoughts and opinions?

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I'm pretty sure I've done exactly what you just described and given the circumstances and the bubble canopy, I'm almost positive I would do it again. Keep eye contact until separation has occurred and you can move to clear air. Never take your eyes off them.

Karl

It's fun to get the lesson during the checkride...

...I was on my PP checkride, just starting the pattern work portion. I was at Watsonville and there were several other aircraft in the pattern. I was on downwind and calling out my position, etc, like I was supposed to. I turned base was looking but my left wing was down blocking my view to the left (I was in a 172). There was a J3 Cub out behind me somewhere in the pattern. As I turned for final, I began to raise my wing and the DPE says (with a tone of voice like he had been just waiting to see how long I would continue my mistake), "Look out!" and, sure enough the J3 Cub had turned inside my pattern and was now on final 100 feet ahead of me to the left and below. I said, "Oh sh*t!" and maneuvered away to the right and climbed back to pattern altitude. I was expecting the DPE to take control and land us, but he didn't. He did give me a lecture about being more careful to watch the traffic.

Bill,
From your description I would have gone behind him as well. As I did, I would have been on the lookout for #3.
I think that the new glareshield mounted traffic avoidance devices are a good thing.
Remember, that little mirror on the glareshield of a Cessna 150? My mid-air nightmare was seeing nothing but the nose of a Grumman Mallard in that mirror. Needless, to say, I don't think they ever saw me. See and avoid, goes for threats from behind as well.

Thank you ,for the reminder to keep my head on a swivel.
Howie

Yet another embarasing check ride/way to turn

I was on my (as it turns out) first of two attempts at the PP ticket. It was the navigation part; I was looking down, a lot. I felt the airplane begin to lurch, looked up and left and saw the front end of a big yellow WWII warbird with radial engine very close; it's about all I could see.

Now I should mention that my check ride examiner was Gill Cargill. Those in the DET area know CARGL intersection. Others know him as a Tuskegee Airman. All I knew at the time, before the TA were well known, was that he had been a WWII figher pilot. This was in the late 70's and he was still flying.

Gill banked the C-150 90 degrees and dropped it straight down. He never broke a sweat and never even spoke harshly to me. I passed next time.

So his answer as to which way to turn was DOWN.

And I know what George meant about seeing rivets.

I would rather manuver so I can still see the other plane but sometimes that is not an option. BTW, the V-tailed devil might have been climbing and passing through your altitude and with the plane in climb attitude might not have seen you either. Sometimes it's good to make some shallow S-turns enroute to present a different view to other pilots and to see a different part of the sky.

My closest call was w/i a mile of a tower controlled airport. The tower called out traffic at 12:00 and a mile, but by that time it was at 6:00 and 1/2 mile! We saw each other and each turned a little, thankfully in compatable ways.

I'm not sure I understand this statement though. "Yes planes actually drift downwind slightly when tracking a VOR needle due to tollerances." While a VOR may be less accurate than GPS with WAAS, a pilot should be able to track it just fine regardless of the wind. If I misunderstood the statement I apologize.

Well done! Don't go "belly up"!

Bill,

Looks like you've received some good feedback on your selected course of action, and I'll pile on with more kudos. From your post, it sounds like you were nearly same-direction, slightly behind, to the right and below, with him turning right in front of you. Going belly up to him by turning to the right and trying to out-turn him could have been ugly (at the very least, very uncomfortable, with much teeth gnashing while blind on him, until you were sure you were clear). By lowering your nose and turning left, sounds like you executed what we called (in Navy formation training), an underrun. Formation savvy guys will tell you that underrunning and keeping sight is the safest way to miss the lead guy in front and provide separation (even if you fly under him...hopefully well under him!). Of course, every situation is different and dynamic, and turning to the right works if you're opposite-direction and both pilots turn right (if they both see the other!), but sounds like your gut was correct on this one. Thanks for the good post, and the good reminder to (like another gent said) keep our heads on a swivel!

Bob
RV-6
4SD

L.Adamson said:

And I'm tired of the NO radio b.s....

L.Adamson

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While I agree with your statement, there are 1 radio aircraft where the radio quits or gets too weak to be heard. Better to assume there are no radios and look.

Practice!

I read something in the latest Sport Aviation to the effect that, if you fly at the minimum required skill level, you won't be able to rise to the level required, if the chips are down. These are great examples!

I fault today's system that requires so little mastery of our aircraft's capabilities to become a pilot. Knowing the rule of thumb is important, but survival is of far greater importance. My only "close one" was with my original instructor, perhaps ten hours into my flying career. We met at Cessna "Tweety Bird" head on. It wasn't THAT close, but the instructor took the Piper Cherokee 140 to probably 70* of bank.

Just last month I turned over my controls to the best pilot I have ever known. Within one minute, his first turn was a perfect 72* banked 3G 90* right. Technically that was aerobatics! But I realized I probably couldn't do that first time, every time without structural damage to the plane. I not only want to not destroy two planes, I don't want to destroy mine missing another. I NEED TO PRACTICE!! That may go for many of us.

Bob Kelly