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Metal in Oil Filter

JonJay

JonJay

Well Known Member
All three AP's on my field or unavialable, so I thought I would throw this out to those engine experts on this site while I wait for them.
I have a high time 0320 in my Bucker, about 2400 hours. I cut open the oil filter and tore out the filter material so I could run a strong magnetic down each flattened out seam. Out of that exercise, I was able to produce some very small steel fragments, enough to make a small pile of them about 1/4" or so around on a flat sheet of paper. Each fragment is about the size of a grain of sand or smaller.
The filter was not changed by the prior owner at the last anual time due to low operating hours. This is the first annual that I have done on this airplane. The filter has about 45 hours on it.
Can you expect to see any metal normally? What do you think?
 
A few flecks is normal, I would say a "small pile" is excessive. Cam and lifters would be my bet. How well does a Bucker glide?
 
I'm not an A&P, but the phrase "....due to low operating hours" sets off alarm bells. I agree with John - I'd be a bit worried about the cam.

Paul
 
Cam & lifter bodies faces takes my vote... and when these parts start to make metal it's time to stop flying and look deeper for sure.
 
I don't think its going to self destruct immediately, but if there is something wearing away at an abnormal rate you wouldn't want to run it any longer than necessary. I agree with Paul & Yukon about cam/lifters, so you have a couple of options, get the engine torn down straight away and find what's wrong or run for another 5 or 10 hours and cut the filter again. Are you sure the filter only had 45 hours on it? How many months did it take to accumulate those hours?

If the answer is no, and may be 3 or 4 years, and you live in a damp environment then corrosion of the cam and spalling of the lifters is a possibility. Hope that the price was reasonably discounted for the high time engine. I had an E2D fully overhaulled by Aerosport power a couple of years ago, with new 160hp cylinders for $11.5K including freight from & to Texas.

Pete
 
Pull a jug

It doesn't take long to pull a cylinder in order to use a bright flashlight and a good look at the cam lobes and lifters. You need to find the origin and an oil analysis might also tell you where it came from.

Regards,
 
Here is my little pile of potential misfortune
my.php
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Scale on the ruler is 1/16 making that little pile of metal about 1/4" around.

To answer other questions brought up, I bought the machine fully aware of the high time and paid accordingly. It was a well known airplane and had a fresh annual when I purchased it. However, obviously the oil filter had not been changed on that annual. Buckers glide like the biplane they are, not very well.
I appreciate the comments about pulling a jug and trying to figure out where the metal is coming from. However, even if I find it is a cam and do a top, I am still sitting with a 2400 hour engine waiting for the next thing to start making metal, or worse. I might as well bite the bullet and send it off to Aerosport. I needed a winter project and I have my 6 to fly, so all is not lost.
 
JonJay said:
Here is my little pile of potential misfortune
my.php
[/URL][/IMG]

Scale on the ruler is 1/16 making that little pile of metal about 1/4" around.

To answer other questions brought up, I bought the machine fully aware of the high time and paid accordingly. It was a well known airplane and had a fresh annual when I purchased it. However, obviously the oil filter had not been changed on that annual. Buckers glide like the biplane they are, not very well.
I appreciate the comments about pulling a jug and trying to figure out where the metal is coming from. However, even if I find it is a cam and do a top, I am still sitting with a 2400 hour engine waiting for the next thing to start making metal, or worse. I might as well bite the bullet and send it off to Aerosport. I needed a winter project and I have my 6 to fly, so all is not lost.
Click to expand...


If you pull a cylinder and see damage on the cam or lifter body, you'll have to break the engine down. Rebuild would be your real only choice at this point.
 
If you have this much metal and it's magnetic, you need to look into where it's coming from. A jug can come off in 30 minutes.
 
Amount of metal....

JonJay said:
Thanks Gil - but everything there appears to refer to metal in a new or low time engine. My mechanic is back Wednesday and we will look into it. Appreciated.
Click to expand...

I think this might be the key statement... regardless of engine hours...

7. Anytime metal is found in the amount of ? teaspoonful or
more, it is usually grounds for engine removal. An exception
should be where problem is confined to one cylinder assembly
(rings, valves, piston, cylinder). In this case, if the entire engine
does not appear to be contaminated, the offending cylinder
assembly kit may be replaced. After corrective action is completed,
conduct the routine ground running and screen inspection
as previously described in Item 2.

Did you exceeed a 1/2 teaspoon?
If metal that bad is coming from one cylinder, a compression check should identify that cylinder...

gil A
 
Does not look like a lot

Does not strike me as a lot of metal. I saw that much once, pulled a cyl as some recommend and could find nothing. 700 hours later, I occasionally see a flake or 10 in 50 hours. If all engines were grounded after seeing that much metal I suspect there would not be many flying.

If it were a new engine and it just started making it I would be more inclined to get excited. At 2400 hours, you are likely to be looking at a new cam and lifters (or other offending parts) at overhaul anyway. It is not like you are going to be doing a lot of premature damage by leaving it in service and watching it closely.

Checking the lift with a dial indicator on the rim of the lifter is an easy way to isolate the particlar lobe that is generating the metal - if it in fact is coming from the cam or lifters. In a couple of hours, you can check and compare the lift on every lobe. I do it every annual along with a compression check and borescope.
 
Negative "G"s

I thought occured to me last night that I might throw out there. The prior owner did only positive "G" manuevers and very little aerobatics with this airplane. I on the other hand have pounded out a lot of inverted flight, Cuban Eights, and Slow Rolls.
Is it possible that this metal could have accumulated at the bottom of the sump for many years and that I have unsettled it?

I am of the mind to follow Lycomings instructions (thanks Gil) which, as long as it is less than a 1/2 teaspoon, which it is far less than that, run for a couple hours then check for metal in the filter again. If none is found, run for 10 hours and check again.

This of course after I check compressions and finish the annual. If my mechanic feels a cylinder pull is in order for a look see inside, sounds like that is easy enough to do.
 
...sorry, another questions for the experts...

I do have a question for those doing frequent annuals. I ran a magnet across the filter element and found no metal. It was only after I tore out the element, laid it flat, and ran the magnet down each seam that I found what I did. Does everyone do this?
 
Metal

"I do have a question for those doing frequent annuals. I ran a magnet across the filter element and found no metal. It was only after I tore out the element, laid it flat, and ran the magnet down each seam that I found what I did. Does everyone do this?"

Every oil change. Slightly different procedure though. Cut it out and slosh it around in a clean quart jar with about a cup of Mineral spirits. Pull out the paper and swirl the magnet around in the low spot. Sounds like a pain but really pretty quick.
 
Oil sample

Send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs or any good oil lab and find out the "Parts Per Million" PPM of the material, steel, cast iron, etc., then you can determine if you have an issue or not. If the PPM is higher than standard average, it might warrant a teardown and the iron/steel will in time waste the engine, it's just like having sand poured in your crankcase. Just my two cents, but heck with 2,400 hours, I'd be thinking about an overhaul soon anyway.
 
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Metal

It is normal for a small amount of metal to be present in new engines(yes I know yours is not)... also if you have been doing negative g's... do an oil sample... that is your best option. If the previous owner never did negative g's.... fly it some... do an oil sample and if you get the same thing, then you may have a problem. What you may have is all the debris from when you stirred everything up from the last million years(technical term) .. I would go talk to Carlus Gann of Gann Aviation. He is the best engine mechanic I've ever seen. If you get that on your next oil change, I would be concerned.
Best
Brian Wallis
404-405-1315 cell.
 
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