Full IFR Precision Approach Installation

Enlightened CFII?s and Instrument pilots...Help!

I am bringing my 6A to full IFR status. My original intention was to purchase a 430W and use that as my primary means of shooting precision approaches. However, I?ve discovered the installation costs of the 430W is just too hard on my wallet.

Now I'm confused. I still want to have the ability to shoot precision appchs, but it seems I can?t decide what suite I need in order to do it legally. I am thinking I will step down to an A1 GPS like the GNC 300XL...but I see it is only approved for enroute, terminal and non-precision approaches.

I am beginning to think, in order to be able to have GPS instrumentation for non-precision approaches AND be able to shoot precision approaches, I will need the 300XL (or equivalent) AND a DME/glide slope/Mkr Bcn/CDI, additionally.

Anyone out there have a suggestion for an IFR suite that will achieve my desire to have full precision appch capabilities but won?t cost an arm and a leg?

I don?t see any alternatives to the 300XL, but I?ve heard that an A2 GPS (like the Apollo GX65) can be welcomed into the same airspace but not be required the 28 day updates, the cooling fan (because it runs so hot) and the added installation costs of the A1 300XL.

What I have at the moment is a KLX 135A GPS/Nav comm, a 6000 audio panel (without the mkrs) and a digital CDI/GS w/NavComm. I plan on selling the KLX 135A and going from there. I wonder if an A1 or A2 IFR GPS can legally take the place of a DME if I use my CDI/GS for the precision approach and get my DME distances from the GPS, which would eliminate the necessity of having to purchase a seperate DME??

Those of you that have been there before...I seek your guidance. At the moment I?m in the Middle East aboard a Navy ship and not always able to get to a phone. VAF has been a wonderful way to stay up with the RV world while I?m here in a very different one. I can?t thank DR and all of you contributors enough!

Bill
6A Flying

I can't answer you about other questions, but I'm sure of one thing:

You can't use GPS distance instead of DME, except when an aproach chart is the same for VOR/DME and GPS.

Greetings Bill,

My two cents on the subject as basically as follows...if you want the ability to shoot precision approaches, which means you want to shoot ILS approaches, that would require a NAV with Localizer and glideslope capability. You wouldn't need a GPS at all in that case.

Now non-precision approaches are a different story. If you want to fly (non-WAAS) GPS approaches now you need to add an approach-certified GPS into the panel. The Garmin 430/530's are great, but if $ is an issure look into the King KLN-89B/KLN-94 GPS's. They're not as pretty but still certified for approaches.

If you want to shoot a GPS approach with glideslope (a WAAS approach), then you will need an approach certified GPS with WAAS capability, which for right now means a Garmin 430/530/480 that has the upgrades.

Those would be your choices. I've seen many new airplanes (LSA's) that have a non-IFR approved GPS in a panel mount with an Apollo SL-30 NAV/COM hooked to an external CDI with glideslope, and right there alone gives you the ability to shoot an ILS. When I build my -12 that's the thought I have right now.

In the end, it all comes down to what capability you desire and how much $$ you're willing to spend. But, if you want a true precision approach-capable airplane, it will have to be set up for either ILS approaches or GPS + WAAS approaches. You won't be able to shoot a precision approach with anything other than that!

Get a quote from Stark avionics, www.starkavionics.com for the 430W. Unless you have already gotten the quote, you will be surprised. John's shop will make up the wiring harnes and ship it out. Download the 430W simulator from garmin, sit down with an approach plate book and try some of your favorite approaches. After that, I think you will want to either wait or pony up the extra cash for the 430W.

Will,

With integrated Com, Nav and ILS, as well as an IFR GPS and color moving map, a used 430 is one heck of a value. Upgrade to WAAS and Terrain Awareness next year when you have more money. Watch EBAY and you will see them for around 5 bills. Safe and reliable IFR isn't cheap. You gots to pay to play.

Piloto.Mendes said:

I can't answer you about other questions, but I'm sure of one thing:

You can't use GPS distance instead of DME, except when an aproach chart is the same for VOR/DME and GPS.

Click to expand...

Eh? According to AOPA, you can:


This agrees with that I've (supposedly) just learned in my instrument ground school.

The 430 is a nice way to go. Going with the 300XL and a SL30 would be about the same price as a 430 and give you dual comms for about the same price, but with no moving map.

TODR

Install the 430 yourself

I've been flying the 430 since it first came out. I also fly an Apollo GX-55 in a different plane. If there is any way to work it out, I recommend the 430 as it is light years ahead of a lot of other GPS's in many regards. Make sure you get a model with the built in glide slope receiver so yo can do precision approaches.

Now that Garmin has upped the ante on upgrading to WAAS, there may be more used 430's coming on the market. E-Bay has one where the bidding is at $4,995. I'm not sure they are all that hard to install so perhaps you can do it yourself.

If you have an EFIS that will interface with the 430 you can avoid the cost of Garmin's $1,600 CDI (nobody else's CDI will work.)

Look at VAL avionics 422 all in one

Hi,
If you want an all in one VOR/Loc/GS/MB box look at the VAL avionics 422. If you can get "DME" from your GPS it will do the whole meal deal.

I used one for 1 1/2 years and it works great.

Duane Wilson

IFR GPS

In order for a GPS to be certified IFR you need to give it altitude info (most GPS's take either gray code or serial, but there are a few, that only take serial) and have an external CDI. Most GPS's also need external annunciation. The 430 or 530 does need external annunciation if the unit is the primary field of view of the pilot.

Regarding CDI's the 430/530 will use any standard CDI that does not have an internal VOR converter, so it will NOT work with a KI-208 or 209, but it can use a KI-209A, and a KI-206 (King units) if I'm not mistaken. If you are interested let me know and I'll look them up.

Hope this helps.

VOR required

I thought that a VOR was required due to a "ground based" reference somewhere in the FARs...

There is a ton of information here....

http://www.avionicswest.com/myviewpoint/ifrgpsbasics.htm

...but this paragraph stands out... The use of a VOR may be written in the TSO required manual for your specific GPS unit....

If I have an IFR GPS, do I still need a VOR/ILS? Yes, if nothing else common sense would dictate that you should have more than one piece of navigation equipment in the aircraft but wait, there?s more. Most GPS Flight Manual Supplements state that "if you are required to file an alternate airport, you must have VHF navigation (VOR/ILS) means to travel to that airport and shoot an approach that is not GPS or loran". You can also use your IFR approved GPS to navigate on the airways also per FAR 91.181 should you desire.

Does this make sense?

gil in Tucson - VFR for now...

Look at Val INS 422

I vote in the Val ins 422, all in one loc gs vor , 1800 clams plus antennae. All you need is DME from your GPS, and there you have it!!

Food for thought!

I cannot thank each of you enough for your invaluable input to my question. I never dreamed I would receive such a wonderful diversity of answers! Each of them gives me a great deal of food for thought and has definitely pointed
me in the right direction. Off hand, I'm beginning to rethink the 430W as a viable way to go. However, I will need to sit back and and study each of your comments carefully.

A huge thanks to each of you for taking time to comment and assist me along the way.

Bill...

Bill,

When you sit back down and study, I think you also need to define for yourself what you mean by "precision IFR approaches." As far as GA is concerned, the ILS (I'll have to check on GPS VNAV--WAAS) is the only precision approach. This should exclude non-WAAS GPS receivers from your selection. Personally, I would not buy a used non-WAAS GNS-430. It will cost you $3,000 to upgrade it to WAAS. When you add that to the purchase cost, you could buy a new 430W from Stark/Stein, etc.

If you could get a good price on a used KX-155, this may satisfy you criteria.

William...that is an excellent reply. I just got off watch and have gone
over all of these suggestions very carefully. You are absolutely right
about the expense of getting a non-WAAS gps then upgrading it. I'm
now deciding on the 430W or the KX-155 you mentioned. A very good
point. Heck, all the responses were incredibly helpful. Now I can just
sit back and try and make a decision. I certainly have all the data I need
to make the right one...

My best to you...and all of those that helped