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ELT vs. PLB

MSFT-1

Well Known Member
I have often heard that a traditional ELT is very old, out-dated technology and the newer 406MHz personal locator beacons (PLBs) are much better at helping someone find you.

Does anyone know if there are PLBs that are approved to replace the ELT in an airplane?

Do they make one that can be activated by the impact of a crash?

Any other thoughts on ELTs vs. PLBs?

Thanks,

bruce
N297NW
RV-8
 
NO

MSFT-1 said:
I have often heard that a traditional ELT is very old, out-dated technology and the newer 406MHz personal locator beacons (PLBs) are much better at helping someone find you. bruce N297NW RV-8
It's very doubtful and unlikely a portable device will ever be approved as the sole ELT for aircraft or be equipped with G-force switches. That is my opinion but I have some understanding of the regs and how the FAA works and they want something permanent.

However there is nothing stopping you buying a PLB and having it on-board. You will still also need a solid mounted approved TSO'ed aircraft ELT as well. The older 121.5/243 Mhz are not bad, just not accurate. Also its academic, they are no longer going to monitor those freq by satellite. Strangely the FAA is not mandating 406Mhz units in the year 2009. AOPA wants like a 5-6 year phase in, but right now its up in the air, the old units have no phase out date, even if their effectiveness will be almost nothing 2009.

The bad reputation of ELT's was they where rushed into service in the 1970's and they where poorly made. The rush was due to a high profile Senator Hale Boggs of Louisiana and Congressman Nick Begich of Alaska who went missing in Alaska in a plane crash. They never where found, dispute one of the most extensive searches in aviation history to date, including using the SR71. This event was presented by some tragic missing planes in the Sierra Nevada's in the late 1960's (see link). These events prompted ELT's be made mandatory.

I think its time for a change, even if it cost $1000. May be they can do it like Canada, they require emergency gear before they let you fly in remote areas; you are mandated to have special equip, just for those flights. For the flat land pilots, they have the option to keep old ELT's, say up to 5 years to upgrade. However you want to fly over the Sierra Nevada's or any flight in mountains country, you need the 406 ELT. However we saw how that one RV-6 pilot we lost this summer was not found for a long time, and he was not over real rugged of terrain.

The real reason for the new technology is unfolding right now with Steve Fossett and it's MONEY!! No doubt the C-130's flying day night, Civil air-patrol volunteers and 1000's of man hours of paid personal will cost massive dollars. The 406 Mhz is more accurate and the search area smaller (2 mile), almost pin point with GPS data. One rescuer was quoted on the news saying it may take days or a year or we may never find him (steve fossett). The Sierra Nevada mountains are rugged. When winter comes forget it. If you want to be found, at least a 406 PLB is needed. Its not the "official" ELT for the aircraft, but that should not stop you from dropping $600-$800 on one. Bottom line nothing is a magic bullet, it only increases your chance of being found. Having a hand held VHF com and knowing the ATCC freq in the area would help calling an airliner. All airlines require monitoring 121.5 when able.

Also when there are faults alarms, many man hours and millions of dollars are wasted, even when no lives are in peril. With the 406 Mhz you must register the unit (under big penalties for failure to do so). So if goes off accidentally you and every one you know will be contacted first.

Here are some good articles:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/aviation/SAR/ELT_History.htm

http://www.avionicswest.com/articles/eltupdate.htm
 
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PLB

I have a McMurdo Fastfind Plus (GPS enabled) PLB that I use when flying over rugged areas or cross countries. It must be manually activated so don't expect it to replace an ELT. The good thing about it is that I can use it hiking, diving, driving, etc.
 
Your idea is right-on, but why is it not offered?

The location information offered by a GPS enabled PLB would greatly impact search and rescue. The accurate location info would allow for quicker dispatch of SAR resources and much more accurate location, compared to a Doppler-derived location (406 Mhz by itself). This would reduce the search area and location solution with resultant likelihood of quicker detection of survivors when SAR resources arrive on scene. The survivability advantage would go up steeply, it is strange that the FAA is not taking the leadership in this area? It really is akin to the ADS-B vs current Radar/transponder technology. Of course if the PLB doesn't activate in a crash all bets are off, you have to transmit the info somehow.
 
This from yesterday's FAA Safety email on this subject

Partial repost:

"For these reasons, the search and rescue community is encouraging aircraft owners to consider retrofit of 406 MHz ELTs or at a minimum, consider the purchase of a handheld 406 MHz Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) which can be carried in the cockpit while continuing to maintain a fixed 121.5 MHz ELT mounted in the aircraft's tail.

Remember, after February 1, 2009, the world-wide Cospas-Sarsat satellite system will no longer process 121.5 MHz alert signals. Pilots involved in aircraft accidents in remote areas will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations to hear emergency ELT distress signals. For further information concerning the termination of 121.5 MHz data processing visit www.sarsat.noaa.gov"
 
Couple of thoughts

First off...thanks George for a most complete and informative post!

My thoughts

1) No matter what ELT you have there seems a pretty large risk (do I have data?..NO) that it won't actually work when needed. I.e if the G switch don't work, the antenna gets ripped off or maybe even if the wreckage flips upside down thereby burying the antenna in the snow....

2) I was amazed to be flying commercially once and to hear the pilots tell ATC they were getting a strong ELT signal...Further corroborated by other airliners...Is it standard practice for airliners to have a radio tuned to 121.5 or was that just luck? Seems to me having a comm3 routinely tuned to the emergency channel by aircraft that can would be a pretty good idea, especially after 2009. Even in the most remotests of places in the US there seems to be an airliner flying overhead at some point.

Right now I think the PLB (with GPS) offers about the best bet...Yes you have to manually activate it but assuming one is flying above 2000 ft AGL there should be time to ge it activated and maybe even get a satallite lock before you hit the ground. Much easier if there is a PX that can be briefed on how to activate the PLB and hold it up like an offerring to God...Which indeed might be exactly what it becomes...:)...Or at least to give a bigger chance of getting a GPS grid transmittied to the satellite.

Cheers

Frank
 
PLB for now

Currently available installed units are way too expensive. I'm probably going to get a PLB and clip it on my vest. I have no confidence in my old 121.5 ELT being of any use. It just satisfies the letter of the law. I figure I'll be able to activate a PLB if I survive a crash. If unable to do so and still alive it brobably would'nt make any difference anyway (the golden hour goes fast in the wilderness). If ya think about it, If you don't servive the crash it's kind of romantic to have disappeared, never to be found again.

It seems that Portable is the way to go in other ways too. I'm leaning towards getting a Garmin 396 GPS, so I can use both the GPS and PLB on my boat.
 
Guess I'm not romantic..:)

Not wishing to give myself every chance, If i'm out in the wilderness the first thing I'm doing is activating the PLB, assuming the airplane is in control and I havent done something dumb like suck a tank dry.

I'd rather deal with the wrath of NOAA (or whoever) and know the thing was beeping before I hit something hard.

Just my 2 cents

Frank
 
Actually

What I might do is to put a long enough lanyard on the plb so I can stuff it ontop of the glare shield and still have the other end fastened to the PX seat belt.

That would give the PLB the best view of the sky, allow it to operate hands free (assuming I'm solo) and still be recoverable if I'm trapped in the seat.

might want one of those extendable lanyards that is on a spring loaded roll up device like a tape measure...That would avoid the lanyard from getting tangled.

Can you tell I been thinking about this?..:)

Frank
 
Frankh wrote: "Is it standard practice for airliners to have a radio tuned to 121.5 or was that just luck?"
______________________
Actually yes, it is a standard practice to monitor 121.5 with our #2 radio. Its really surprising how many alarms we actually hear. I'll bet I've encountered a dozen or so myself over the past 17 years. Thankfully most (or all) have been false alarms or test alarms at the top of the hour, but rest assured, there is quite a coverage net above North America with all the commercial traffic these days. Even the Arctic regions of Canada and Alaska are now 'covered' because of the many Polar routes being flown by several air carriers to and from Asia.
I think the ELT on 121.5 (with it's limitations) will be around for a long time to come... but, that said, I will investigate the purchase of a PLB for my personal RV travels...
Cheers,
 
ALSO

All military aircraft have "guard" receivers built into their radios. They monitor 121.5 and 243 MHz. The ones with HF also monitor 500 KHz.
 
Interesting

So while the satellite coverage of ELT's will be going away, there is still fair chance of "Someone" picking up your ELT signal, assuming it actually worked.

thanks for the info!

Frank
 
Fair? I say Poor to Nil

frankh said:
So while the satellite coverage of ELT's will be going away, there is still fair chance of "Someone" picking up your ELT signal, assuming it actually worked.

thanks for the info! Frank
I see a lot of justification for being cheap. I think this fits the old saw, penny wise pound foolish. I think rationalizing of how it won't be that bad after Feb 2009 is kind deluding your self, no offense. Counting on non satellite based DF from other planes is kind of wishful thinking in my opinion.

A fair chance? OK I fly airliners and yes you are suppose to monitor 121.5 on #2, but in 15 years I have heard two or three ELT's. You report it to ATC and they yawn (faults alarm assumed as it's 99% of the time). However many crews, airline, corporate, GA don't set #2 to 121.5. Some can't because they have ATC and company set. Others crews are casual and #2 will still be set to ground, company, ATIS or last freq used not 121.5. Trust me, it's not a sure deal by any means. Airline crew's job #1 is not monitoring #2 for ELT's. When I fly over the water I have to set 121.5 per the airspace regulation, more for other airliners. Never heard an ELT over the Atlantic or Pacific, once over the caribbean. The latter was weak and by the time I called ATC it was gone.

With a whopping 100 milliwatts from an old ELT on 121.5, unless a plane is overhead (an not too high) they may not hear you, even if they do tune their radio to 121.5. How well does you 5 watt VHF line of sight com radio get out? On the ground, pushing 1/50th of the power your range will be poor. The 121.5 is the homing freq, good for a mile or two tops. 243 Mhz is moot for commercial aircraft, don't have it.

As far as military planes, coverage wise, is peanuts compared to commercial traffic. I am not in the AirGaurd or active military, but I doubt their main mission is flying around looking for ELT beacons, when not on a dedicated SAR mission. Still, it would be LUCK that any plane, military or commercial picked up your 121.5/243 signal directly (not through a satellite).

Let's say at FL 350 a crew hears your ELT. Assume direct over head 6 miles, which is pushing the range of 100mW, assuming perfect conditions. I've got doubts 100mW goes more than 2 miles or about 12,000ft and most jets are not flying at 12,000 feet unless on initial approach or arrival, but lets assume the best. So they report it. How big of a search area will that be? Conceivably a circle 100nm dia or more, call it 8,000 sq miles. They don't know they are right over you, say its half that size, 50 nm circle? (2000 sq miles)

The scenario above assumes a plane tuned to 121.5 heard it, reported it and action was taken. The 406 units get to about 2 miles and yards with GPS. I think the real saviour will come from satellite alarms which we are losing in 2009.

Not sure why pilots are so cheap? :rolleyes: :D Gosh sakes go get a 406Mhz PLB at least, better a PLB and a 406 ELT as well by Feb 2009. If you fly local around flat populated areas than an ELT is not as critical, but remote and mountain country flying is a different deal.

When ACK comes out with their unit, when and if, it will not be $225 and will not likely use off-the-shelf alkalines. I know, I asked and they are using Lithium for their certification. Why? Because of the 5 watt pulse the 406 units are sending out, is more power than alkalines can give, under the time and temp limits. Will the ACK be less than ME406 $995? Probably. But a PLB is $700. May be that has been the problem all these years CHEAP ELT's. May be its time we get real quality ELT's that actually do some thing.

Even on a good day with satellites, 121.5/243 was not that good precision wise. To be real, 406 Mhz is no magic bullet either, but the rescue community and other countries have been pushing this technology for a long time. The 2009 date was announced in 2000! Only the USA is holding out. Granted we have a huge fleet, boats and planes, compared to say Switzerland. The US coast guard has their stuff together, 121.5 was illegal on Jan 2007.

If you are hoping 121.5 saves your behind than I would say POOR to NIL. 243 Mhz? I don't know. Counting on military? The international SARSAT's will not process the 121.5/243 after Feb 2009. It's conceivable the US NOAA SARSAT's may continue to process old freqs after Feb 2009, but don't count on it.

I am a libertarian (not liberal) and think people should do as they like with out government interference as long as its legal and not hurting any one else. However the waste in money to search for people with marginal info, especially searching faults alarms, is a huge waste. It also risks the lives of the search crews. The 406 units are registered to owners, which will cut down on the waste; plus the improved accuracy alone is a quantum magnitude better. We should embrace it, not fight it. However if you want to fly with an old ELT or no ELT of any kind, I say fine, but don't expect people to look for you, because they already said they won't.
 
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SAR won't look for you?

I am not sure that is a valid statement. Your signal may not be detected as it can be today but if they get a signal will they just blow you off? If so they must blow off 121.5 MHz ELT alarms today.

I have my 406 MHz PLB already.

The best safety option is not doing stupid things that activate ELTs anyway. Personally I don't consider that the ELT provides any real safety benefit to me.
 
Monitoring 121.5

Back in the days before GPS, I landed out on a remote dry lake right about in the middle of where the current search area is for Steve Fossett during a soaring contest. Within minutes of landing, I was VERY HAPPY to be able to raise a United crew on 121.5 and let them know where I was. They then passed the info to FSS who passed it to the FBO who sent my retrieve crew out to get me. I later found out all that relaying took less than 45 minutes. It was about 3 AM that morning before the crew with glider trailer arrived. It was pretty lonely out there waiting - just me and a few lizards for company. Now that I have a GPS enabled 406MHz PLB, I wouldn't fly without it. I still have hope that Steve will be found soon.
Al Thomas
N880AT
RV-8A (canopy, wiring & FWF)
 
Yes and replying to George

I was more thinking from the perspective of...OK i have a PLB now does the old ELT give me any brownie points in getting rescued?...I.e if I have a PLB (that i'm fairly sure I can get squawrking before I hit the ground), so do I therefore need a 406 Mhz ELT on top of this?

I'm thinking not ...Not at least until the 406 units come way down in price.Wasn't thinking that the old red brick would be my only crutch out in the wilderness.

Thanks

Frank
 
The exception?

glider4 said:
Back in the days before GPS, I landed out on a remote dry lake right about in the middle of where the current search area is for Steve Fossett during a soaring contest. Within minutes of landing, I was VERY HAPPY to be able to raise a United crew on 121.5 and let them know where I was. They then passed the info to FSS who passed it to the FBO who sent my retrieve crew out to get me. I later found out all that relaying took less than 45 minutes. It was about 3 AM that morning before the crew with glider trailer arrived. It was pretty lonely out there waiting - just me and a few lizards for company. Now that I have a GPS enabled 406MHz PLB, I wouldn't fly without it. I still have hope that Steve will be found soon.
Al Thomas
N880AT
RV-8A (canopy, wiring & FWF)
Exception that proves the point.

In the flat no trees or valleys. :D
Raised crew? On hand-held with 5 watts not 100mW ELT? :D
Under busy flight path or airway? :D
 
False alert rate

If the 121.5 MHz ELT false alert/alarm rate really is 98%, that suggests a problem in the ELT design and secondarily perhaps with pilot monitoring prior to shutdown.

How do we know that the false alarm rate will be less with 406 MHz units? Does the Capstone project provide data to suggest that?

I would have paid more within reason to get a better 121.5 MHz ELT if it drastically reduced the false alarm rate which would make real alerts more useful.
 
Reply to gmcjetpilot

On this particular occasion, I landed on a dry lake about 9 miles due west of Mina, Nevada after 6PM. I was on the 204 degree radial from the Mina VOR and under two intersecting airways. I knew this at the time which is why I went on the radio so fast after landing trying to get a relay. I had retained several gallons of water in the wing tanks as a precaution prior to landing. No ELT in the glider - none of the other gliders in the contest carried ELT's either. There is a primative dirt road that leads from Mina to the dry lake where I was stranded. On most days I doubt if there's any traffic on that road at all. No cell phones back then either. The dry lake has a chain link fence going across the middle of it and there are bomb craters and unexploded ordinance on the other side of the fence.

Most of my x-c soaring in this area, about 500 hours and 20,000+ miles, was between 1980 and 1997. It has been my experience that in the area between Reno, NV and Bishop, CA and up to 75 miles east of that line, you could easily and quickly get a radio relay from jets passing overhead. I used 121.5 MHz relays from the glider to airliners when necessary on several remote landout occasions over the years but only when I was a long way from a paved road or any occupied building. The airline crews have been very helpful when they understood my situation. The ease of getting a 121.5 relay may have changed since then.

The conditions in this area are generally very favorable to safe long x-c soaring and rarely get dangerous during the summer. It's a beautiful area to fly! I'm looking forward to doing my 1,000KM flight out there in the next several years.

Al Thomas
N880AT
RV-8A QB (canopy, wiring and FWF)
 
406 PLB Equipped!

I got a very nice birthday present from Louise last week - a 406 MHz, GPS-enabled PLB from ACR - it is very compact and the battery replacement is at five years. While it takes a dedicated battery which has to be replaced at a service center (and no doubt costs a great deal more than AA's), this is a very rugged unit that we can use in the air, on the water, or in the wilderness. With the amount of time I'm spending flying over desolate terrain these days, it sure is going to make me a lot more comfortable than to think I was relying on that old-tech 121.5 ELT I have in the airplane.

I mounted it on my harness pad using velcro, and it is very easy to activate if I felt I was headed down.

IMG_1666.JPG


Louise said something like "Now I'll always know where you are if you're in trouble..." Sounds good....no? Hmm.....:rolleyes:

Paul
 
Be sure to register your PLB

That is part of the process to help eliminate false alerts and get to you quickly if the activation is real.

I have even annotated trips away from home. Your cell phone may not work in many desolate areas.
 
I liked the online registration process - very quick to do updates if contacts and such change - well thought out!
 
Good deal Paul!

Thats the newer single button activation style from ACR I believe. It looks a little more compact than my previous gen 2 button activation unit.

I was trying to find the best place for it...I eventually chose to pass the PX seat belt thru the lanyard on the 7 and stuff it between the seats.

Your solution looks pretty good and I wonder if you should adopt a similar Modus operandi...I.e pass the lanyard thru your own seatbelt...The idea being you get the thing squarking before hitting the ground if poss...Maybe ripping it off your harness and puting it on your lap, thus the GPS gets a straight up look at the sky and migth be less susceptable to damage during the actual crash... The lanyard allows you to retrieve it if your immobalised.

of course then I guess it could still bounce up and knock you unconcious...Now would'nt be ironic...to find you'd been killed with your own PLB...:D

Seems to me Loiuse will make a great Wife...she has an electronic leash for you already...:)

Frank
 
Group Buy PLB

I am in for a group buy for a PLB if we can get it together in the next 2 weeks, otherwise I will bite the bullet and go solo.
 
$565.70

www.limitedgoods.com

Best price I found in limited search. Probably not worth a group buy on a commodity item like this.

Everyone be sure to send your state a use tax check when you buy via the net!!! OF COURSE I WILL---

Anyone want some beautiful Florida land, lots of water, nature, etc......................................................
 
McMurdo free battery replacement for life

I get free batteries for life. Bought from Landfall Navigation in 2005. May no longer be offered.
 
ACR 406 for $538 at Aircraft Spruce

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/406plb.php

Aircraft Spruce has the ACR 406 w/GPS for $538. Here's some of the info on the ACS website.

"When you activate the TerraFix? 406 GPS Personal Locator Beacon, it sends your signal to one of seven satellites that continually circle the globe. This signal is then relayed to a ground station so search and rescue personnel can be notified. In less than an hour, aid can be on its way. After several passes, the satellite pinpoints the PLB's location to within a 2.5 miles. Interface a GPS receiver or utilize the onboard GPS (P/N 2798.4 only), and your precise position is sent immediately.

The TerraFix? 406 GPS Personal Locator Beacon weighs just 12 ounces. It's not much larger than a TV remote control, so it's easy to pack or carry. It can continuously transmit both your coded signal, as well as a localized homing signal, for over 24 hours. The rugged case is completely water-proof and it floats."
 
Aircraft Spruce info is incomplete

406 MHz signals can also be picked up by geosync satellites and in the future probably by GPS satellites. I highly recommend the GPS enabled units.
 
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