Overloaded, HOT air, NO Flaps, Short Field, BAD Outcome

To all:
Here's a very graphic home movie taken of a recent crash. A Bonanza, NOT an RV... The field isn't high, but the weather has been HOT. The airplane, a Bonanza, was taking off (without flaps) for a long flight, full of fuel, baggage and with four souls aboard. Watch and remember it every time you look at a marginal runway, consider your cabin and fuel load and say, "I think it'll be all right."
That said, the guy would likely be alive if he'd used takeoff flaps, better short-field capabilities, left some fuel behind, or, of course, been flying an airplane with better short-field capabilities. Here's the URL, and be warned: it's not nice. I love Bonanza's as they are great airplanes, just passing on a little SAFETY THOUGHTS OK. I normally don't like posting things like this, but I want everyone to be smart and not say I Think it'll be all RIGHT http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a06_1188732892

I have a friend with a "K" model V-Tail and there is no option for using flaps on take off in the POH from what he told me. Any Bonanza drivers out there? Are all the Bonanza's like this? As for the crash... Very sad to know that people lost their lives in this accident. My inlaws had friends in a local club that did something similar in their A36 at Tahoe years ago. It just wouldn't fly. Fatal on this one as well for all on board.

The odd thing is that this is not a short field, it is over 4,0000 feet and it is not high altitude about 1,300 feet. It is hard for me to imagine the density altitude being high enough that a Bonanza could not operate out of that field safely if not overloaded and if operating properly.

The airplane seems to get off the ground in a reasonable distance and be climbing, but then it started faltering.

Looks like he tried to pull the nose up too high when he should have been lowering it.

Sad indeed.

What about the fuel?

Obviously many factors could have lead to this crash. But, according to the video, this was the second crash at the airport that day (the first one was non-fatal). If I was the NTSB, I'd be looking for common threads. Heat is one, but fuel contamination is another. Bad fuel + High temps = vapor lock. It's hard to tell if the Bonanza was making power while he was sinking to the ground, but just a thought.

My prayers go out to the families.

Paige
RV-8A

n5lp said:

The odd thing is that this is not a short field, it is over 4,0000 feet and it is not high altitude about 1,300 feet. It is hard for me to imagine the density altitude being high enough that a Bonanza could not operate out of that field safely if not overloaded and if operating properly.

The airplane seems to get off the ground in a reasonable distance and be climbing, but then it started faltering.

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Here is a quote from another forum. I checked the numbers and they are correct.

Airplane was an 96 A36 probably with full fuel had 600-700# useful load, I'd bet that there was more weight in the plane than that. Using FlightStar's takeoff calculator for a max gross plane (Beech specification figures)with a
ten knot tailwind he would have needed 2295 ft for a no flap takeoff assuming an OAT of 105 F. Using the recommended approach flap setting for takeoff would have resulted in a takeoff distance of 1885 ft. For a 50ft clearance the same parameters would give 4078 no flap and 3715 w/approach flaps. Very marginal and especially since the pictures in the videos were not of lightweight folks.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

John Clark said:

with a ten knot tailwind he would have needed 2295 ft for a no flap takeoff assuming an OAT of 105 F.

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John, it sounds like you have more information than I do. Obviously a 10 knot tailwind would make a huge difference. Do you know what direction the attempted takeoff was. It looks like, in the video, that the takeoff is in the uphill direction. It certainly wouldn't make sense though to take off uphill and downwind.

Umm, isn't 1300MSL @ 105F about 4800' DA? Couple that with a 10 kt tailwind and MGTW takeoff ... sounds like trouble to me, although I've never flown a Bonanza. The use of a Koch Chart suggests that the takeoff distance would be increased about 100% over SL, ISA conditions due to DA; not sure how much the tailwind would hurt.



I wouldn't worry about this particular condition in the CT, as we have power loading of 13 lb/hp, a stall speed of 42kt in short-field take-off config (15 flaps) and Vx of 65ft. If we had sturdy landing gear, we'd be a good short-field airplane.

TODR

Tailwind component

TODR,
The tailwind component is a big factor on takeoff. The "rule of thumb" is 10 percent more distance for each 2.5 knots. In this case add another 40 percent to the takeoff numbers. The tailwind was figured in the figures that I posted, however.

Remember too, the numbers from "the book" are assuming perfect technique, fresh airplane, and proper leaning if needed.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

PaigeHoffart said:

But, according to the video, this was the second crash at the airport that day (the first one was non-fatal). My prayers go out to the families.

Paige
RV-8A

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O.K., here are a few facts---------I live here, and was at the crash pretty soon after it happened.

First accident was a Kitfox that departed about 6 hours earlier, made a precautionary landing after noticing oil pressure dropping. He chose to put it into a field, even though there was an airport, PVF, within 5 miles or so. unfortunately, the terrain wasnt as smooth as it appeared to be from the air.

Pilot and his wife self extracted from crash, spent a night or two in hospital, but all in all doing fine.

There was a local TV news crew interviewing the airport manager about the Kitfox crash, and a cameraman who was along decided to take a film of some of the activity at the airport.

This film turned out to be the Bonanza.

The above incidents were totally un related other than departure from Cameron Park.

It was a hundred plus degrees when the Bonanza took off, and that was in the shade at my house---------air over the runway???

As stated above, very heavy loaded. Up hill, and a bit of a tail wind.

The rear seat passengers died, pilot and copilot survived.

To show how stupid and sensationalistic the news media can be, one local station showed the mangled Kitfox while discussing the people killed in the Bonanza.

Two fatalities in a certified airplane, two walk aways in an Experimental.

I, and a few others have written the local news media about the accuracy of the reports, as yet I have not gotten a reply.