Superior XP vs SL

I'm hoping somebody on here knows what the difference is insurance-wise between going with an XP versus an SL kit. I seem to recall my insurance guy saying that they treat the XP like a Lycoming, but not the SL. Anybody have any solid onfo on this or other differences. I have built lots of car and motorcycle engines over the years and suspect that this motor is not any worse. I really want to build my engine, but I'm having a hard time with the $2500 (plus travel) expense for the 'privelege" of doing so at their facility. Also, has anybody built an engine and then had it run in a test cell to check things out? How much did that set you back?

Steve Zicree

Steve, we can build you an XP360 and have you watch and somewhat participate. We are an XP-360 build and test center. There is no charge for that service at our facility in NY. All engines that we build TMX or XP are tested before they leave our facility and that test is included in the price of the engine. The XP pricing from us is the same as from Superior.
You are also welcome to observe the testing if you want.
Good luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."

Mahlon,

Thanks, but NY is even further from me than TX (California). I guess my question is about the differences, if any, between the XP and SL. I think insurance might be an issue, which trickles into the financing as well. I know I can save $1500 right off the top with an SL over an XP. I feel that I have the skills required to assemble it if it really is a complete engine as Superior says, but also like the idea of being able to test run the motor before it goes on. Anybody out there gone the SP route?

Steve Zicree

Hi Steve,
I would stray away from doing it yourself unless you really know aircraft piston engines or have a good A&P friend. Lots of inside tricks building a engine.
Best of luck
Kirk RV-8 fuse

Can somebody out there give some examples of these "tricks" that are used to build an aircraft engine versus cars, bikes, etc. I've known a couple of AP's that I wouldn't trust to wax my car, let alone build me a motor. I'm not saying that dedicated engine builders aren't fast and skilled at building, but I think some folks view engines as a bit more mysterious than they actually are.

Steve Zicree.

Sorry Steve I did not mean to offend, I just meant through my experience watching my engine be built things like the proper fit of the crank gear, in my kit that was sent to Mattituck they had to try two diffrent gears to find a proper fit. Also with my engine a connecting rod was too short. These were parts that were sent with my kit, and the experience of the people who put my engine together was able to catch these minor imperfections in fit that I am sure I would have missed.
Best of Luck and again sorry if I offended,
Kirk

Kirk,

No offense taken at all. Holy cow, one of the rods was too short?! By how much? Was it from a different model engine? Stuff like that can definitely happen, which is actually most of the reason I want to build it myself. I'd love to have the folks at Superior look over my shoulder while I do it, I'm just not sure I want to shell out 2 or 3 thousand bucks for that service.

Steve Zicree

Just do it

Steve,
I am a past student of the Superior build school and it has been the best part
of the building of my RV-8. The people at Superior are great, and the information you learn is invaluable, it costs extra but you will be glad you did it, "Hay, its only money!"

Steve -

I was initially going to go to DFW to build an XP360 at Superior's facility, but ended up going to Mattituck and building a TMX after talking with Mahlon. One of the biggest problems dosen't appy to you, but since I live in Texas, I was going to have to pay sales tax on that huge investement! The price of a round-trip ticket to Long Island on Southwest was a whole lot cheaper....

I have no doubt that any good, competent mechanic can build up an aircraft engine, but based on what I learned at Mattituck (and my own past experiences), the chances that you wil get all of the little secrets right on your first try with no one telling you the peculiarities of the model are slim.

I've been wrenching most of my life, but the little things I saw at Mattituck made me glad I didn't try to build this "simple" engine from a kit...at least not my first time! Absolutely no offense intended to anyone! Mattituck was also a good deal because they didn't charge for me to come and help, but either place would give you those little valuable lessons - and as mentioned above - access to extra parts should the ones in the kit not turn out to be exactly right....

Paul Dye
TMX-360

Paul,

Thanks for the insights. So how does this whole sales tax thing work? When you went to NY and bought the motor, did you have to pay NY sales tax? Would I have to pay TX sales tax if I went there and built my engine? What if I order it and have it sent to me in CA? My head is spinning.

Steve Zicree

Don't discount the value of the Mattituck workshops at Oshkosh! Every other day they tear one down, and on alternating days they build it back up. And when I say they, I mean whoever is standing around willing to lift a wrench. Sure, a bunch is done in preparation, but you see every detail of every part, and the whole thing takes about 6 hours.

They're not listed in the forums or workshops as I recall, I literally stumbled into their tent last year. As I recall it's in the area of the EXXON Elite tent? Mahlon, feel free to jump in!

Absolutely top notch instructions and "tricks", and a digital camera commits it to more than just memory. I did take some shots of thing I thought were important in between torqueing bolts and installing cylinders. The day I was there we had about 6 - 8 people "helping/learning", and as I recall, at least one for sure, and possibly two of the guys there were A&P's!

Steve,
There is no sales tax in NY for aviation related items. So we don't have to charge it. I don't know about "importing an engine into the land of Arnold" But if you paid for the engine in NY, to me the sale happened in NY and CA sales tax shouldn't be due. I don't have to charge CA sales tax here. But check with local sales tax people to confirm you don't have to send them a check when you get home.
The Oshkosh schedule is as stated, one day take apart workshop and the next assemble work shop. Assemble days take about 5-6 hours and normally start around 11:00, and take apart days take 3-4 hours and start around noon or 1:00. It can get crowded and it can be OK crowd wise. Certainly, a good way to see some of those little things that make a difference. They are located in the Exxon tent daily, every day except the last day normally. I will update the list when I have the schedule worked out.
We also have workshops here in Mattituck periodically. Next one is tentatively scheduled for the first weekend in November. All day Saturday affair, starts at 8:00am and ends 5-6 PM. No charge for the seminar and we provide free breakfast and lunch. You are responsible for getting here and motel, if that is necessary for any one?s particular situation. This is a classroom environment, not a hands on, workshop. We limit class size to 25-35 people, so it is very personal with the instructor in a very open forum atmosphere.
If you or any other folks are interested in the workshop at out facility in November, just email me and I will put you on the "keep informed about the workshop list" and keep you updated and supply registration details once things are firmed up, as the date approaches.
If you are considering this, look at JetBlue if they are anywhere near an airport for you, as they fly into JFK and are normally very resonable from the west coast. You would need a car rental and a motel for a couple of days and a few meals out. That should be the extent of your expendatures.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."

Ok Mahlon, it looks like you're moving out in front here. So I can stand there and observe the building and testing process for no upcharge, I pay no NY tax, and I get to visit the big apple for the first time ever! My next question is will the engine fit in the overhead on the flight back? Just kidding, but how much can I expect to pay to have it shipped to Ca? Thanks for all the info.

Steve Zicree

Mattituck proximity to KISP?

Mahlon,
How close are your facilities (Mattituck) to the Islip Airport (KISP)? I believe Southwest Airlines flies into KISP.
Don Hull

Sales tax...

Steve,

I think Mahlon really answered the question best, but in my view, I looked at it like any mail-order purchase from out-of-state. I don't pay sales tax when I order from A/C Spruce becasue they don't do business in Texas. Same thing with Mattituck, and I paid them from here. The fact that I went up there for a visit had nothing to do with it! Again, I can't speak for how California does it.....

Paul Dye
Finished riveting my Canopy Skirt tonight - and no cracks!!

Don,
We are about a 55 minute drive from ISP. ISP is located about 1/2 way between the city airports (JFK and LGA) and our location. The city airport drive to us, can be upwards of two hours depending on the traffic situation. ISP is by far the airport of choice, as far as convenience once here, but is mainly served by Comair through Cleveland and Atlanta or Southwest. So using ISP normally means non direct flights... a bit of a pain getting here but a lot easier once here. The flights in and out of ISP also tend to be a bit more expensive then using one of the city airports unless you get tickets as soon as the flights become available.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."

Steve,
The only way to get it in the overhead, is apart, with lots of people and lots of carry ons!.
Freight to CA should be no more then $250.00 assuming surface type freight.
One word of note is that the city is actually about 70 miles from our location. We are in a very rural farm type area (vineyards and vegetables) and it is a couple of hour hectic drive to downtown Manhattan.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you.

Sales Tax

Here's my three cents (inflation, you know) re sales tax 'cause it cropped up here, again.

Governments are in cahoots with each other and expect you to pay tax on anything to someone. Mail order, or buying-out-of-state wise, your home state holds you liable for "use" tax in lieu of "sales" tax if you buy out of your home state, whether in person or delivery by common carrier, when you don't pay sales tax where purchased. Anybody who 'fesses up to all those Spruce (or Mattituck) orders ought to have their head examined, but that's the situation. If you pay tax there, you're local revenuers generally are mollified, even if the rates differ; government somewhere got its pound of flesh.

Even in a state without sales tax, if your locals would impose tax, you're liable. Oregon (Van's) doesn't have sales tax, so you deflect the pain if you pick up a $17K kit in person. But when you go to register your new airplane, the FAA tells your home state who then comes calling. That's the big shock for most builders, the post-registration-wipe-the-RV-grin-off-your-face inquiry from your friendly local tax collector.

That's how bureauocracies remain in business. Then there's property tax for the unfortunate many, especially in states/counties as ravenous as CA.

Me (hunkered down, expecting black helicopters momentarily)

Actually, I do have my head examined on a fairly frequent basis by the folks that give me very expensive flying machines to play with...

....What you left coasties have to remember is that "Texas is a whole 'nuther country!!"

Paul Dye
Fiberglass everywhere..."I thought I was building a METAL airplane!"

Steve I know that sales tax thing is hard to believe. I live here in NY and if they could, they would tax the air we breathe. About six months after I registered my a first plane I received a curt form letter from the tax guys demanding I pay up. That aside, I have to agree that having a company like Mattituck build you engine would be a wise decision. Im sure there's a lot of good engine builders out there that can save you a few bucks but I guess with Mattituck part of the price is their reputation. They have been building these things since before a lot of us were born. I've been going through the same agonizing thought process your going through the last year or so. I've been building a 6A for ten years (2 kids college=stop building) and I'm coming back up to speed now. I've watched painfully as the prices have risen every year so I 've decided to buy everything now even though it will be a couple of years into the air. The Superior build school was considered but with the money I save at Mattituck I'll be able to buy an autopilot and some other goodies. Also in my opinion I think the ECI components are Superior (pun intended). Insurance compines feel much better insuring a experimental flying behind a factory built and the huge sigh of relief and smile I got out of my wife made it a no brainer. Buy it so your pickup is scheduled at the time of Mattitucks engine class and you'll have a great engine and know everything about. And FREE food.did I mention the free food. I'm telling you all things considered, its the best deal in the country.

Concerning sales tax. Here is Arkansas you will have to pay the sales tax either when you make a purchase or when you register the plane. I am sending them a check each time I make a major purchase. when selling an aircraft the seller is responsible for collecting and remitting the tax. So if i sell my plane and don't get it from the buyer and don't send a check to the sales tax division they will call about year later and then you will pay them plus interest and penalties. Don't expect much help from the buyer when you call him up begging for more money to pay the sales tax either.
Don't ask me how I know!
I hope your state in not like mine but more are than are not.

Jim Wright RV-9A wings 90919 Arkansas

Ironflight said:

Steve -

I've been wrenching most of my life, but the little things I saw at Mattituck made me glad I didn't try to build this "simple" engine from a kit...at least not my first time! Absolutely no offense intended to anyone! Mattituck was also a good deal because they didn't charge for me to come and help, but either place would give you those little valuable lessons - and as mentioned above - access to extra parts should the ones in the kit not turn out to be exactly right....

Paul Dye
TMX-360

Click to expand...

DITTO!! .... Paul said it all.

It's the "dentist" theory, i.e. some things are best not done yourself EVEN if you know what you're doing.

I've been building engines for appx. 30 years.....which qualifies me as a "CK" (certified knowitall)

So, naturally, when I initially began building my 8 I was SURE about building my own SP engine since I've done maybe a half-zillion engines. How difficult could a Lycosaur be?

Then I realized the $1,000 "savings" of going with an SP would eliminate the test cell and warranty. NO BRAINER

I resigned myself to buying from one of the reputable shops.....

fast forward 2 years....I went to Mattituck several weeks ago to watch Kirk's engine get built.

BOY was I surprised. I was AMAZED at how many "tribal knowledge" items there were throughout the build.

WATCHING THE BUILD was extremely informative, but NOT enough to justify going the SP route EVEN if you are an ACTUAL engine expert. Myself included.

Chance I could do it better: 0%
Chance I could do it faster: 0%
Chance I could do it worse: 100%
Chance I would save money: 0%
Chance I would have a test cell: 0%

I will be buying from Mattituck and "helping" with my build... even though I know my way around an engine.

Mattituck is closest to me, but other shops are just as good if logisitics are an issue.

Here's how to build your own engine:
1) Call Mattituck/PennYan/Lycon
2) Fly to Mattituck/PennYan/Lycon
3) Watch your engine get built
4) If at Mattituck: Have NY pizza for lunch (best in the world)
5) Write the check
6) Go home
7) Wait for the truck
8) Prominently display engine in your living room

Test run

The big issue of do it yourself or not is the test cell run up. I built up my own Lyc O-360A1A with A&P/AI friend. Not hard, but sure wish I had a way to run it up on a test stand. I did save a bunch of money, but than I have no warrantee. George

The test cell was a big decider for me. Safety is a lot of risk management and flying a brand new homebuilt for the first time with a brand new shade tree engine no matter how well it was built just didn't seem wise. Your worry envelope becomes a lot smaller with a factory built & tested engine.