Some flip over, some ground loop!!!

With all this talk about accidents, I wanted to bring up what happened to my hangar mate this weekend. He is the owner of an RV-4.

My hangar mate and I showed up at the airport on Saturday at the same time by coincidence. We were talking and he told me his new insurance company wanted him to obtain 2 more hours of dual training. So he called the instructor that checked him out before and asked him to give him some more dual training. The instructor had gained some weight so my hangar mate did a few calculations with different fuel loads for W&B. He told me everything was within limits and to have a good flight as I walked out.

I am a very young tail wheel pilot so I wanted to go out and practice takeoffs and landings and commercial maneuvers. So after pattern work I departed the area.

When I got back, my hangar mate was not home. I did not think anything about it because he was going to eat breakfast. I figure he was having a good time and did not want to come back.

Well, turns out that he ground loop his bird. He and the flight instructor were not hurt (as far as I know), the plane on the other hand is in bad shape. I feel terrible for him. I don't even know what to say.

He was used to flying by himself and I think that the added weight of the instructor in the back caught him by surprise. Unfortunately the rear passenger does not have rudder pedals. So the instructor could not help him out. My hangar mate has been flying for many years (his job) and has flown many different airplanes. My advice to you and me is to never stop flying your aircraft until it is parked. I know we all forget once in a while. Call this a friendly reminder, due to someone else?s misfortune.

gmcjetpilot said:

Stop picking on RV tail draggers to justify the Trikes "issue" please.

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I think the post is GREAT!

Keep them coming!!!

L.Adamson

The title is just a title. I am not trying to imply nor justify anything. The point of the post is that you need to be careful no matter if the little nose is in the front or rear. The other point was the fact that the lack of controls from the back seat may have not been the best solution/choice however, that was his plane and his decision (after receiving the required 10 dual and 10 solo in an RV-4 required by his previous insurance).

My buddy does not have an airplane now. I was just trying to prevent other people from doing the same thing. As soon as I know more about it, I will post.

Who's picking on anybody?

George,

I don't think Axel was picking on taildraggers at all. After all, looking at his signature, I don't see anything to indicate that he is an "A" driver! I think he in fact is one of "us"....

George, I am generally one of the guys standing behind you 97% of the time in discussions on the forum....the other 3% we could probably have a lot of fun with over beers! I think Axel was just trying to see how many skips he could get with a flat river stone on a smoooooth pond on a very warm summer night!

just one of your loyal supporters....most of the time...

The point to me, hard to get/give dual in a tandem

AX-O said:

My buddy does not have an airplane now. I was just trying to prevent other people from doing the same thing. As soon as I know more about it, I will post.

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OK I agree, be careful. However more spacifically how and who you get dual from. Its a catch 22 getting dual in tandem's. Finding qualified CFI's are also hard to find.

I think the tandem dual issue is more the salient pont than the gear config.

Most insurance companies will accept a RV-6/7 for a RV-4/8 training as similar type for training. Same with RV-6A/7A for a RV-8A.

As a CFI I just can't or wonlt give dual with out controls. I have done it on occasion with RV people I know, for VFR flight reviews when they are current and qualified.

Clearly I can't be PIC in the back seat with out controls. Even than, dual with tandem's (RV-4/RV-8) are a real challenge even if they had controls and instruments.

The Air Force, long time ago required the T-37 side by side config for training. Obviously you can do dual tandem and there are plenty of tandem trainers: Cub, Citabria, T-6 and so on, however dual controls are kind of a must, at least peddles and throttle.

My apologize

I am sorry, I miss understood. It's my pet peeve that the tail dragger and trike get tied together some how and spring loaded to argue the difference. Clearly that was not being said; all that was being said was a good message, of be careful and mourning, anguish over his buddies lost plane. It could happen to me and I know it. Hope I never forget that; it's good to be reminded, often. No offense intended or meant. Sorry again.

gmcjetpilot said:

No offense intended or meant.

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None taken.

I spoke with my buddy a bit more. This is what he said.

He was on final and everything was looking "normal". He wanted to do a wheel landing due to the extra 200 plus pounds in the back seat. So he came over the fence ("normal" again) and did his step to perform a wheel landing. When he added a little power to stop the rate of decent, he went back to that "normal approach" and just added enough power as if he was flying solo to obtain that "normal" solo rate of decent and attitude. The rate of decent was not reduced as much and he log a few touch and gos. In the process the tail started bouncing/swinging and he failed to get it under control. Everyone is ok.

I'm sorry to hear about this whole situation Axel. It does seem to be a case of straight pilot error though, and I think that you hangermate would probably even agree on that point. More weight=more power to stop a sink rate.

osxuser said:

It does seem to be a case of straight pilot error though, and I think that you hangermate would probably even agree on that point. More weight=more power to stop a sink rate.

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I agree and he also agrees. Flying is very repetitive, that is one way we mitigate safety issues however, sometime the repetitive task bite our rear end because we get into that loop of motions.

osxuser said:

More weight=more power to stop a sink rate.

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'Tis true!

Anyone that reads my blog knows that I am in a constant battle with my -6 with regards to landings. One thing that I have noticed in battle after battle is how differently my airplane flies when I have a passenger (and sometimes even full tanks!) on board. Yes, the additional weight manifests itself in the flare, but in reality it affects far more than that. Even getting slowed down in the pattern takes longer with the greater inertia of the heavier plane. I try to get equal practice in with both solo and dual flight, but it still requires a bit of additional self-coaching to remind myself that things are going to be different when I have another SOB. (Ok, 'Soul On Board', not the other thing...) I can easily imagine that situation being even more challenging in a tandem.

One thing that I've noted in particular is that I have a tendency to carry a few more knots down final and over the fence when we're heavy and/or it's windy. There's a reason for doing that, but I always try to minimize it as much as I can because even a handful of surplus knots almost always gets me into a bouncing situation. Often, it's bad enough that I lapse into what I call a Tourettes Landing, defined as one generating more four-letter words than a Scorsese movie.

Why not just throw some extra weight in the right side when you are by yourself, then all landings will be predictable.

allbee said:

Why not just throw some extra weight in the right side when you are by yourself, then all landings will be predictable.

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Requires additional fuel, loss of performace, loss of aerobatic capability, etc...

L.Adamson

allbee said:

Why not just throw some extra weight in the right side when you are by yourself, then all landings will be predictable.

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I see your point, but...

$4.07 per gallon. Beyond that, lifting dead weight into and out of a -6 is no picnic. Better, I think, to make sure I do both modes often enough to be proficient at both.

Dgamble said:

'Tis true!

(snip) One thing that I have noticed in battle after battle is how differently my airplane flies when I have a passenger (and sometimes even full tanks!) on board. Yes, the additional weight manifests itself in the flare, but in reality it affects far more than that. (snip) Often, it's bad enough that I lapse into what I call a Tourettes Landing, defined as one generating more four-letter words than a Scorsese movie.

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Dave, one thing that I think might help you here is angle-of-attack instrumentation. I have been surprised in my RV-8 just how much extra speed is required to maintain the same AOA when I have a heavy backseater.

I know that many will scoff at the idea ("a real pilot can tell when he's about to stall") but these airplanes, with the possible exception of the -8, have very little natural stall warning.

Every year, a few experienced RV pilots die from failure to properly manage AOA. Often, they are out of their "normal" comfort zone (i.e. high, hot, and/or heavy) and frequently at an unfamiliar airport. Sometimes they are distracted or stressed by an engine failure, or being badgered by a ground controller.

The AOA gauge, when used properly, can pretty much make all your landings the same, regardless of your weight or density altitude.