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Whats up with improper Uncontrolled Airport procedures?

Brantel

Brantel

Well Known Member
What is up with the fact that people seem to be totally disregarding uncontrolled airport procedures?

Everywhere I go I see people flying incorrect or no patterns at all, not using the radio properly etc.

Anyone else noticing this trend?

Yesturday while eating lunch at the airport, I saw a heli doing autorotations using a right hand TP and we have a left hand TP. Then I saw a flight of two one of which was a Pitts approach the field at about 500 agl, joined a right base to final for our runway 5 which has a LH TP cut off a 150 that was turning base and landed. The second plane did almost the same but did a 270? turn to the left while on a right base and ended up on short final and landed. Niether were using the radio properly.

The other day I saw a commuter jet take off without announcing a word on the radio. Same day another jet popped out of no where on a 10 mile final and landed, again no radio call.

Whats up with people these days?
 
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We have the same thing happening up here. I'm thinking that some just do not know the proper procedures. Jets not making calls though? I think your problem is worse down there. On blatant stuff like that, I have no sense of humor- I violate these guys. It's the only way they will learn the proper procedures before they mid air someone. :mad:
 
Sorry but I'm straight in whenever possible. Time is money and time in the TP is time low, slow, and exposed to condensed traffic which all ups the risk factor IMHO. Now that said I'm on the radio at 10, 5, 1, and short final with position and intent. If someone is in the TP I'll join or sequence as needed and usually fly by the TP guidelines but it's usually empty and I can see better on the straight in for non-radio traffic.
 
Brantel said:
Everywhere I go I see people flying incorrect or no patterns at all, not using the radio properly etc.



I saw a heli doing autorotations using a right hand TP and we have a left hand TP. T
Click to expand...

Actually, helicopters are supposed to fly opposite the fixed-wing pattern. The actual reg says something like "avoid the normaql traffic pattern" but in practice this usally means fly a RH pattern when the fixed wing traffic is using LH.

Can't defend the Pitts or the jet though ;-)
 
Follow the rules

Sorry guys, but use of the radio is not required--suggested, but not required. However, not using one when you have one to use may get you a call from the FAA. No rules violation, but it goes into your permanent record. :)

Grant,

Regarding the straight-in landings, unless you are on an ILS flight plan, you are violating the regulations, and putting the rest of us at risk. The regs say you will follow standard traffic patterns for the airport in use. It does not say, if you feel more important than everyone else, then you can do as you please. I'm sorry, but my time is valuable, also. If I have to go around because some yahoo is doing a straight-in 10 mile final, then you have wasted my time, for your own convenience.

We are all taught the rules for entering and leaving traffic patterns. We should be able to expect everyone else to follow the rules. However, since we cannot be assured that everyone will follow the rules, we are also taught to look out for the unexpected. It's just like driving, where everyone is required to use turn signals, but you always have to be looking out for the guy who is too "special" to be bothered by the inconvenience of having to flip a flipping turn signal.

If you were not taught how to enter and exit the traffic pattern, then I would suggest that you get an instructor, and take a few more lessons.

Tracy.
 
grantcarruthers said:
Sorry but I'm straight in whenever possible. Time is money and time in the TP is time low, slow, and exposed to condensed traffic which all ups the risk factor IMHO. Now that said I'm on the radio at 10, 5, 1, and short final with position and intent. If someone is in the TP I'll join or sequence as needed and usually fly by the TP guidelines but it's usually empty and I can see better on the straight in for non-radio traffic.
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Grant,
I must say that you flying straight in approaches is adding risk to everyone else. To admit that you do it to save a few cents is disturbing.
Even though you make the radio calls when we are out there in our Luscombes and other no radio planes we look for traffic where it supposed to be.
Plus isnt it illegal?
 
flyeyes said:
Actually, helicopters are supposed to fly opposite the fixed-wing pattern. The actual reg says something like "avoid the normaql traffic pattern" but in practice this usally means fly a RH pattern when the fixed wing traffic is using LH.

Can't defend the Pitts or the jet though ;-)
Click to expand...

Actually dug into this and this is what it states:

AC-90-66A 8/23/93
A helicopter operating in the traffic pattern
may fly a pattern similar to the airplane pattern
at a lower altitude (500 AGL) and closer to
the airport. This pattern may be on the opposite
side of the runway with turns in the opposite
direction if local policy permits.

Guess we all need to be looking for a helicopter turning right base to final when we are turning left base to final. Who was the genius that came up with this?
 
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No brainer

Brantel said:
Guess we all need to be looking for a helicopter turning right base to final when we are turning left base to final. Who was the genius that came up with this?
Click to expand...

It's also SOP for airports where sailplanes/gliders operate. They go right, we go left.....a no brainer. Helicopters and gliders go about half or less our airspeeds. You don't really want to be behind a helicopter or glider that's doing 60 MPH do you? Besides, checking the AIM will usually notify you of helicopter and/or gliders and parachute jumping operations.

I've been flying NORDO crop-dusters for 37 years off this same airport and have had jets, helicopters and other aircraft in and out regularly....no problem...the eyes have it ;)

Regards,
 
rv6ejguy said:
...... On blatant stuff like that, I have no sense of humor- I violate these guys. It's the only way they will learn the proper procedures before they mid air someone. :mad:
Click to expand...
No sense of humor so you "violate them"? oooo-k
 
Near Mid Air

Brantel said:
Actually dug into this and this is what it states:

AC-90-66A 8/23/93
A helicopter operating in the traffic pattern
may fly a pattern similar to the airplane pattern
at a lower altitude (500 AGL) and closer to
the airport. This pattern may be on the opposite
side of the runway with turns in the opposite
direction if local policy permits.

Guess we all need to be looking for a helicopter turning right base to final when we are turning left base to final. Who was the genius that came up with this?
Click to expand...

I nearly bought it in my Bucker as the Helicopter was flying off of the left taxiway turning across the runway for right traffic. He was under my left wing so I did not see him until he turned and had past right under me on my initial climb out. Maybe missed by 25'. I dont think he ever saw me. If they are operating off of a common runway, it makes sense to fly oposite. However, crossing an active runway was just plain stupid and I have seen this on more than one occasion. It is even standard practice at a significant local controlled field and I am surprised nobody has ever been bit. The regs are poorly written in this regard in my opinion.
In regard to pattern entry, I always have the feeling that I am a guest at any airport I land at, including my own. My job is to safely blend in with everyone else and keep out of the way. My theory; If I am out of their way, they are out of mine. A standard pattern entry is the only way I can feel like I am doing my job to blend with the crowd, even when the crowd is only me.
 
Violated- Canadian jargon- means a phone call to Transport Canada to report it. TC takes a pretty dim view on this stuff and I see about 3-5 people per month prosecuted for this across Canada. Here you are fined or get a license suspension in most cases- even just for not calling on the MF.

As for the non-standard approaches and no radio calls- don't endanger me with these to save some fuel. I can tell you a few stories about NORDOs which were not seen by eagle eyed jocks doing low passes, non standard entries into the circuit and other stupid pet tricks.

Being seen is greatly assisted by others knowing where you should be and assisted even more by making a radio call announcing your position and intent. Spotting some traffic even when you know where to look is hard given terrain and aircraft colors sometimes. (I'm think white aircraft over snow).

It is important to think of others here as well as the whole safety picture.

Just picture this scenario - a C150 student is turning final and forgets to make that call, while our seemingly eagle eyed RV jocks blasts into the overhead break at 180 knots, doesn't bother with the radio call because he doesn't see any traffic because it's blocked by the low wing and lands on top of the high winged Cessna about 30 feet off the runway. Either pilot could have prevented it of course...

Just remember if you do survive a midair but kill someone else doing stuff like this, the lawyers will make your life **** and not help other RVers insurance rates.

There, I'm off my soapbox now.
 
I believe that lots of times when you see an airplane take-off or enter the pattern without a radio they have the wrong frequency tuned.

I missed a glider head-on in the traffic pattern at KRMG last summer -- we missed each other by about 35 feet as I was on downwind. I had my wife in the right seat. Sun was in our eyes and the only way I saw him was an airplane on base in front of me called him out on the radio. He was nordo and there were no fewer than 5 airplanes trying to land at the time. When we landed I asked my wife to tie up the airplane. That's the only time I have ever been knowingly rude to a fellow pilot.

Me: "Three hundred dollars", I told him.
Him: "What do you mean, he said".
Me: "Three hundred dollars and you can have yourself a nice radio that you can use in your glider".
Him: "I have the right of way since I'm a glider and I don't need a radio"

I won't transcribe what I said after that. Another guy in a 172 that was behind me came up and chewed him out too. The glider had also gotten a little too close to him. Hopefully he got the idea.

:mad:
 
"Colloquiallisms"

Violated- Canadian jargon- means a phone call to Transport Canada...
Click to expand...

This thread sorta reminds me of the fiery Southern preacher who went to Canada, and near the end of his stirring sermon, he exclaimed, "What we need to do...is stop piddlin' around!!!"

From the reaction of the audience, he knew he said something wrong.

As he was greeting the folks after the service, one of the men told him "piddlin' around" implies "urinating on the grass" to the good folks of that congregation.

Not RV related, but something to think about...

Don
 
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I am located at a small airport (one main runway paved 4,000 ft and one cross grass runway) that has 350 planes based with a high percentage being antiques and a high percent of those with no radio. We have people flying every imaginable pattern using both runways at the same time and on weekends having 5-8 planes in various patterns (maybe a Cub, a Waco, a Monocoupe, a Pitts, a DH-4, a 152, a 172 and my RV-6A like this weekend). It is all about flying with you eyes open.

Recently we have a helicopter school from an airport 8 miles away coming over to practise and flying the oposite pattern. This makes the pattern much more diffucult due to them flying over the grass runway and esentially closing it. We have been forced to try and create specific procedures for the helicopters but so far have not had any luck. Bottom line is to keep your eyes out the window and use the radio (hopefully most will hear you).
 
thallock said:
Grant,

Regarding the straight-in landings, unless you are on an ILS flight plan, you are violating the regulations, and putting the rest of us at risk. The regs say you will follow standard traffic patterns for the airport in use.
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What regulation is that? Can you cite this?

While the standard traffic patter is recommended, efficient and safe in a busy environment --a straight in approach is perfectly legal at an uncontrolled airport. Now if you do a straight-in and there is an incident/accident due to traffic conflict, you WILL get busted under the catch-all "careless and reckless" citation. Jets typically do a straight-in due to their need for a "stabilized approach."
rv6ejguy said:
On blatant stuff like that, I have no sense of humor- I violate these guys. It's the only way they will learn the proper procedures before they mid air someone.
Click to expand...
If there is not an incident/accident, what exactly would you violate them on? Not being courteous?

Don't confuse Advisory Circulars (AC 90-66A, 90-42 , etc) with actual regulations.
 
Other traffic, please advise.

1. What's up with that phrase coming into vogue within the last 3-4 years? It's regularly appended to the initial position report when intending to land at a non-towered field. The pilot should've been monitoring the unicom for a minute before broadcasting his position/intention and obviously continue to LISTEN/transmit all the way to the ramp.

2. Out here in the sparsely populated west, straight-ins are the norm because you'll probably be the only one in the vicinity (and not cause other traffic ain't advisin'). Visitors be advised, Sky West regional calls a 15 mile final to Saint George, UT, SGU. And they don't like go-arounds.

Steve
 
Ok, so it's not a rule.

William,

You are correct, I stand corrected. The regs do not say anything about landing at non-towered airports, other than turns must be in the correct direction. They do not specifically prohibit arrivals without turns. For Class G, they say all the rules in Class E, plus you must follow established patterns on departure. If Class G is totally uncontrolled, why is it more restrictive that Class E? I'm pretty sure that the AIM has the wording that describes the standard traffic patterns, and "suggests" you follow them, but as you said, that is non-regulatory. As someone stated earlier, the rules are poorly written.

Here's the regs (I'm not going to search the AIM):

91.126 - class E

b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace?
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.

91.127 - class G (everything in class E, plus):
(b) Departures. Each pilot of an aircraft must comply with any traffic patterns established for that airport in part 93 of this chapter.


Tracy.
 
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Steve said:
1. What's up with that phrase coming into vogue within the last 3-4 years? It's regularly appended to the initial position report when intending to land at a non-towered field. The pilot should've been monitoring the unicom for a minute before broadcasting his position/intention and obviously continue to LISTEN/transmit all the way to the ramp.

2. Out here in the sparsely populated west, straight-ins are the norm because you'll probably be the only one in the vicinity (and not cause other traffic ain't advisin'). Visitors be advised, Sky West regional calls a 15 mile final to Saint George, UT, SGU. And they don't like go-arounds.

Steve
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The latest AIM addresses this issue in 4-1-9-g-1. It states that "Traffic in the area please advise" should not be used under any condition.
 
I'm not sure what percentage of VAF members uses a perfect pattern every time, but I'm guessing it's not 100%. Ever make a direct downwind or base entry? If you're coming to a field and are set for a straight-in, is doing a wide base entry ok?

As for me, my answer is that I'm sorry Senator, I can't recall as to whether I have made non-standard pattern entries or not. ;)
 
THis is what I have found when someone just ain't using the radio and landing at an uncontrolled field. They have the radio on. Yup, how did I find that out. Easy, you announce that you are right at the same possision that they are in, you may not be. All of the sudden they start talking. Try it.
 
Keep in mind...

Even if a jet were to make a standard pattern entry to the airport, their final would look like a straight in approach to most of us.

At my local airport we have ultralights which fly 500 agl and opposite pattern. No jet though. :p

Yes, I agree that there are a lot of pilots out there making the pattern unsafe.
Yes, I admit that more then once I have had my radio tuned to the wrong freq. and didn't know until after I had made call into the void. :eek:

The bottom line is you have to do your best to make sure that you are where you are expected to be and shout out you location hoping that someone will be paying attention and not run into you. You also need to avoid not only the pilots that are doing a good job in publicizing their position, but all the other objects that may be wanting to share you position with you. :eek:

Kent
 
Unfortunately it's the same in airplanes as it is in cars. There are those who don't respect others and think they are the only ones that matter. I flew for 4 years at 52F. Home base for flash. Mostly everyone acted properly but occasionally some didn't. I have seen several planes cut off in the pattern (usually by someone with an expensive plane that makes him feel superior) and I'm not saying that everyone with an expensive plane falls into this category but that's what I have seen. I was second on downwind for 17 and a Bonanza flew across the field at the numbers and cut in front of the plane in front of me because he said he was faster. He must have been because I couldn't find him after I landed.

I try to be courteous at all times. Unless I am having an emergency it doesn't bother me to fly a few minutes longer. These guys don't realize they are risking their own lives as well.

As to the gentlemen that fly?s the straight in approaches, I believe he says if anyone is in the pattern he adjusts and fly?s a sequenced entry into the pattern. Personally if no one is in the pattern and he is communicating I don't see where that is too much of a problem. (Just my opinion) It's all a matter of knowing what's around you and communicating.
 
Just lucky, I guess

Our airport seems to have pretty polite and competent pilots, at least as far as communication and pattern work goes. It has been a long time since I have seen anyone do anything out of the ordinary, at least without announcing it on the radio. No horror stories here.

I did find it interesting a couple of years ago to hear someone from the FAA (at a WINGS seminar) say we were using the radio too much! He made a good case for reporting DW and going ahead and landing, especially when there was a lot of radio traffic. He made the case on it being distracting to the pilot, it often stepped on other transmissions and it did little real good. My normal pattern has a fairly short final and I admit I rarely report final, unless I see someone who needs to know. I am more talkative at other airports, however, and I am VERY uncomfortable when a radio fails or I can't hear for whatever reason.

Bob Kelly
 
One of my observations when flying non controled fields is that many people fly airline approaches. Bugs the heck out of me. I figure if someone is going to fly a pattern that gives them a 3 mile final they deserve to be cut in front of. When there is a pilot that knows his airplane and can do a short approach and turn base to final over the numbers, then he should be able to do such a thing. Now if there is traffic that is in too close, we know how close that is, of course don't do it. But if that cessna, here I go labeling, is turning that base to final 3 miles out, then he needs to at lease hear something like, Nxxxx on final over the numbers at least. That way if he needs to he can adjust, but being 3 miles out, I doubt it. I can be down taxi'd and in the hanger before some of these people land.
 
w1curtis said:
What regulation is that? Can you cite this?

While the standard traffic patter is recommended, efficient and safe in a busy environment --a straight in approach is perfectly legal at an uncontrolled airport. Now if you do a straight-in and there is an incident/accident due to traffic conflict, you WILL get busted under the catch-all "careless and reckless" citation. Jets typically do a straight-in due to their need for a "stabilized approach."
If there is not an incident/accident, what exactly would you violate them on? Not being courteous?

Don't confuse Advisory Circulars (AC 90-66A, 90-42 , etc) with actual regulations.
Click to expand...

Ahhh.... our regs are different up here in the great white north. It is illegal to not report on a MF (mandatory frequency) unless you are NORDO and in both cases you shall conform to a standard pattern , letdown and pattern entry. This is not optional up here.

As usual, there are many interesting views on this question and something to be learned-always valuable in my view.

I don't particularly mind someone doing a long straight in if they announce it with position reports as they approach. I do mind the bomber patterns that some fly. This is being as inconsiderate as not saying your position and intentions though it is not unsafe.

I say if you have the radio- use it by all means but keep the chatter down if it is busy because that is dangerous too.
 
Straight in approaches

Just wanted to share my near miss experience with a staight in approach at a towered airport .
We reported 3 north(gps) and were cleared for straight in on 18L
following a Cessna which reported 1 mile final for 18L. Kept looking
for Cessna which should have been right in front of us but could not see it.
After about 30 seconds of looking, occasionally left and right, saw landing
gear out of the corner of my eye up and over my left shoulder (thanks to RVs great visibility).

Pulled some negative g's and requested a 360 to follow the 182.

Watch out with straight in approaches!
 
must say that you flying straight in approaches is adding risk to everyone else. To admit that you do it to save a few cents is disturbing.

Even though you make the radio calls when we are out there in our Luscombes and other no radio planes we look for traffic where it supposed to be.
Plus isnt it illegal?
Click to expand...

As mentioned above it is legal.

I would postulate that you, in your Luscombe, without a radio, are a larger risk to everyone else than someone making a straight in approach. Granted a radio is not a legal requirement for you but then again a "standard" approach is also not a legal requirement.

Common sense, vigilance, courtesy, and observing the rules of right of way are the keys to a safe pattern and a safe approach.
 
liability for straight in approaches

I read the details of a lawsuit once that arose because an airplane on a straight in approach collided with an airplane using a conventional pattern as both were landing on the same runway.

One of the important issues was whether the pilot flying the straight in was in violation of the law. The Court ruled that the staight in pilot was not violating the law, however the "recommendation" in the FARs (or is it the AIM?) that pilots fly a conventional pattern caused him to be negligent, and therefore liable in the accident.

Of course nobody "won" since both pilots were killed.
 
Bob, this reminds me of some more erksome behaivor.

videobobk said:
I did find it interesting a couple of years ago to hear someone from the FAA (at a WINGS seminar) say we were using the radio too much! He made a good case for reporting DW and going ahead and landing, especially when there was a lot of radio traffic. He made the case on it being distracting to the pilot, it often stepped on other transmissions and it did little real good. My normal pattern has a fairly short final and I admit I rarely report final, unless I see someone who needs to know. I am more talkative at other airports, however, and I am VERY uncomfortable when a radio fails or I can't hear for whatever reason.

Bob Kelly
Click to expand...

1. Using your radio to say "Clear of active" after landing. :(
Who cares! And I was taught to do this.
2. Not clearing the runway after landing, but taxing to the end instead of using the taxiway. :mad:


Kent
 
I'll share my most recent brush with this topic last summer coming into an uncontrolled field with a MF. Announced my position, altitude and intentions 6 miles out, again overhead 500 feet above circuit altitude, determined wind direction overhead, did my letdown to circuit altitude on the dead side, called downwind, final. Just as I touched down a yellow Citabria passed right in front of me using the crosswind grass runway. I never saw him against the gold wheat fields surrounding the runway, never expected him landing there with a 90 degree crosswind and heard no calls on the MF.

Scared the **** outta me- a few more seconds and it could have been a mid air.

I went and talked to the pilot who seemed to be in a rush to button up his hangar. He was a bit shaken and admitted his radio was in the shop and apologized for his conduct. He certainly knew it was wrong and dangerous. He said he saw me out of the corner of his eye at the last second. Experienced guy, ex air force. Still learning a valuable lesson just like I did.

I certainly NEVER think I will always be able to spot conflicting traffic, especially with guys doing stuff like this.
 
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A recent encounter with a Cessna

Everybody has followed a Cessna in the pattern while the pilot flys bomber patterns, but this encounter was a first for me.

While transitioning over a class D and talking to the tower I was given a frequency change on the other side. The non towered airport that I was landing at was only a few miles away and things were happening pretty fast. The airport according to my GPS was 4 miles off of the nose and I was set up on a left 45 but had yet to actually see the runway thru the haze. About the time I saw the airport and checked the GPS again a Cessna driver keyed his mike and kept me from being able to call 3 on the left 45 for runway blah, blah, blah. This guy was giving his position in relation to roads, stores on the ground by name, and areas of town. He was obviously a local with a fantastic knowledge of the town but none of it helped me to know where he was. As he continued with his dialogue I started my left downwind and he was still on the mike. Sometime around now he called out that there is an RV in the pattern that doesn't appear to be calling his position so he briefed everybody in the area of my location and color of aircraft followed up by another position report for himself. This update on his position covered my base leg which he also stated to everybody after finishing his own position. When I was over the numbers for landing he finally let go of the mike and shut his #@*$# mouth. I keyed and stated that this is the RV driver that isn't talking and could he please call my final for me as I'm now over the numbers. He said that he would be happy to and that he can also grade my landing for me if I'd like. Wow! Anyway he was still talking when I shut off the plane at the fuel island. What a salami head this guy was and the whole time he had me pegged for one. There was no way anybody taking off or arriving could get a word in edge wise.

Best,
 
Safety first, argue later

If anyone can't afford to fly the pattern, then they can't afford to fly and they sure can't afford the lawsuit my family will hit them with after they kill me in a midair collision. Morons not willing to consider the safety of their fellow pilots, the possible impact of a midair on the families of their fellow pilots and the impressions their actions leave on the non flying public need to stick to RC or hangar flying.

I frankly cannot believe anyone is arguing about flying a pattern or using a radio. Everyone makes mistakes and I'll be the first to admit I've made more than my share, but when it comes to landing and advising my fellow pilots with location reports, I'll err on the side of being chatty, regardless of what some WINGS instructor thinks.

When I was training for my tail wheel endorsement, the instructor told me to fly the pattern at 500' and cut the base and final short. His reason was to get in more landings because I already knew how to fly. When I told him he was correct and I continued to fly a proper pattern, he told me it was "your money you are wasting, but the customer is always right". I went to another airport and found another instructor.

Helicopters, ultralights, gliders and skydivers are part of the airport pattern equation. Anything less than diligent efforts by all to see and avoid will eventually result in disaster. To argue that any method of pattern operation other than the recommended or legal procedures is baseless, irresponsible and arrogant, if not bordering on lunacy.

FWIW
 
Some things never change

I've been flying since 1968 and have amassed about 24,000 hours and I remember this exact conversation at the little airport I learned to fly out of.
You all be careful out there. It's a jungle...
 
Straight ins

I am currently studying for my IFR ticket and it looks like a lot of airports have GPS approaches that dictate a straight in approach with radio calls every after dropping ATC. With that said doing actual or simulated GPS approaches to these airports should be considered part of the "pattern" as long as you are talking on the radio.

Bottom line is be vigilant and broadcast if you have a radio.
 
It's airport specific.

Kent,

Its airport specific. I fly out of 7S3, and you have probably been there. It has a nice hump in the middle. Notice how you can't see aircraft on the touchdown roll from the departure position? I like it when other pilots tell me I can stop waiting for the runway to clear, cause it takes quite a bit of wait before they finally pop up over the hill. If they land short, make the first turnoff, and taxi to the hangers, I'll never see them. I don't like guessing. :rolleyes:

Of course, you don't have to call it the "active".
T.J.

-----------------------------------
1. Using your radio to say "Clear of active" after landing.
Who cares! And I was taught to do this.
2. Not clearing the runway after landing, but taxing to the end instead of using the taxiway.
-----------------------------------
 
Hard Knox said:
If anyone can't afford to fly the pattern, then they can't afford to fly and they sure can't afford the lawsuit my family will hit them with after they kill me in a midair collision. Morons not willing to consider the safety of their fellow pilots, the possible impact of a midair on the families of their fellow pilots and the impressions their actions leave on the non flying public need to stick to RC or hangar flying.
Click to expand...

Geez Robby, tell us how you really feel :D. Actually, I agree. If somebody wants to take unnecessary risks with their own hide, go right ahead, but how bout a little social responsibilty?
 
N162RV said:
I am currently studying for my IFR ticket and it looks like a lot of airports have GPS approaches that dictate a straight in approach with radio calls every after dropping ATC. With that said doing actual or simulated GPS approaches to these airports should be considered part of the "pattern" as long as you are talking on the radio.

Bottom line is be vigilant and broadcast if you have a radio.
Click to expand...
Good advice. I'd like to add that I try to pick fairly deserted airports to practice approaches at - and if the field I've picked turns out to have three or four in the pattern, I'll go somewhere else to play.

Also, a stay-alive strategy that I've adopted: If you're out practicing approaches, or on an actual approach in better-than-IFR weather where VFR traffic might be up there with you, keep in mind that a lot of VFR drivers have no idea where the particular fix you're at is located or what a procedure turn, DME arc, and so forth is. I always try to make my CTAF radio calls in a way that's VFR-friendly, e.g.: N12345 is procedure turn inbound, six miles south on the ILS for runway 33. That way everybody who's listening has an idea of where you are and what you're doing.

mcb
 
Ask if you don't know...

mburch said:
...keep in mind that a lot of VFR drivers have no idea where the particular fix you're at is located or what a procedure turn, DME arc, and so forth is...
Click to expand...

Thank you, Matt. I hear these practice IFR approach descriptions all the time, and usually don't have a clue where to look. So I talk a lot about my location, and don't hesitate to ask for more info about their location. There aren't many happy endings to midairs.

...Joe
Cessna driver
RV-3 rookie (still looking for that perfect landing)
 
Hard Knox said:
If anyone can't afford to fly the pattern, then they can't afford to fly and they sure can't afford the lawsuit my family will hit them with after they kill me in a midair collision. Morons not willing to consider the safety of their fellow pilots, the possible impact of a midair on the families of their fellow pilots and the impressions their actions leave on the non flying public need to stick to RC or hangar flying.
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I live under an uncontrolled pattern, and would prefer the biz jets to do straight ins, rather than stall out over my house while trying to jockey into position with the 172's. :D

Same goes for numerous large twins!
And actually, these aircraft I've described all do straight ins all the time. There is no instrument approach either.

L.Adamson
 
MTC

I just finished reading this thread for now. A couple of things worth comment, one of them being, I do my share of straight in's and I call them from far off (uncontrolled) most people around here at least make the addition ?traffic permitting?. If someone else is using the pattern and a conflict becomes obvious I have found that the straight in will maneuver and become part of the normal flow of traffic. I have on occasion extended my downwind by a small amount in order to accommodate someone flying straight in. I've also had someone else extend downwind for me. It works if you're willing to use the radio for communication. Which brings me to my next comment. I am sick and tired of listening to people CHIT CHAT on the common frequency. Really! If you have to Ham it up get on another frequency we're not all using and talk till you're blue in the face. Other people have things to say, like where they are, and don't give a rip about whether you're going to get your car painted this week or next.
 
Robbie put it pretty well.

How can we tactfully educate bomber pattern pilots and those afflicted with verbal diarrhea on the radio? I'd appreciate anything that has worked for others. :confused:
 
My Northern Home Base

Uncontrolled, Untowered:
- Flying school planes flying continuous touch & goes
- Off airport planes flying touch & goes as their airport frowns on them
- IFR Students flying mix of GPS, VOR, ILS straight in approaches on 33 when wind says 15
- Helicopter school practicing auto rotation onto taxiways
- Corporate jets coming & going , most are base or final entries into pattern
- Twice a day MD-80 slot machine runs for local gamblers
- Local hot air balloonists launch right next to airport as they are aircraft too & have the right of way

Now granted not all of this happens at the same time always; but I have seen very busy periods.

Me returning from a long cross country leg of 400 nm and flying the pattern...
I don't really want to hear some other piston, VFR plane (non emergency) call a straight in.
 
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Uncontroled everything

Being a CFI for 25 years what I hear a lot is, it's not a regulation, I don't have to use my radio, I only need to make left turns and it doesn't say how far from the airport! And many more, I guess there are a lot of people that think someone is telling them what to do, when what is important is what is the safest thing to do for all of us pilots. Another CFI I used to fly with let a student enter a right down wind at an airport that was left traffic, at an uncontrolled airport that may have 10 airplanes land on a busy day. Someone on the ground called the FAA, and complained. He lost his license for 90 days. Why? When it's not a regulation? The hearing that he went to sited against him because he didn't follow the recommended procedures out lined in the AIM. In a civil court that is the way they look at it also, so if you ever get into a court with another pilot, or person that complains, the one that fallows the recommended procedure closest will prevail.

Now that said, I fly out of an airport that because of a maintenance facility that works on Life Flight, Police, and California Department of Forestry helicopters and some fixed wing, I have personally talked to several of the pilots in these aircraft because they ignore the basic rules of an uncontrolled airport. In this day and age, we need to be aware of our neighbors; our traffic pattern keeps us on the south side of the airport with a left hand pattern for 22 and right for 4. This keeps us from flying over the neighborhood and golf course adjacent to the runway. I'm sure that some of the public service pilots think they should be privileged because they are police and fire. Unless they are going to an actual emergency they need to do as we do. They not only fly the wrong patterns but they fly Bell 414's at 300 agl right over the houses, and guess who gets blamed for what they do? I don't hesitate to pick up a mike and politely inform them they need to review uncontrolled airport usage and learn what a segmented circle is used for. I don't get an attitude, I just ask for their help keeping piece.

Like the Life Flight that was making multiple approaches in a Bell 222 at 300agl flying over and over the houses, I simply asked him if he had a Flight Guide, he said he did, I asked him to please look at the pattern for the runway he was using, and asked if he would help keeping the noise down over the housing.

On the other hand, I will not alter a pattern for noise abatement unless it is printed in the Flight Guide or similar publications, although we need to be sensitive to our neighbors, if you give them an inch, they will take a mile. I hope that this clears up some things, like all of aviation we can tear this apart for ever with opinions, the bottom line is to be safe, please fly safe and realize you?re not the only one out there.
 
Several points.

SportAvServ said:
...On the other hand, I will not alter a pattern for noise abatement unless it is printed in the Flight Guide or similar publications, although we need to be sensitive to our neighbors, if you give them an inch, they will take a mile. I hope that this clears up some things, like all of aviation we can tear this apart for ever with opinions, the bottom line is to be safe, please fly safe and realize you?re not the only one out there.
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AMEN! This is no diferent than people moving down the street from the local race track, then complaining about the noise. I am in your camp.

Steve: I am getting too old to concern myself with PC or to worry about hurting someone doing stupid things feeling's. I disagree with Ron White that "you can't fix stupid". Most people are not stupid, just either misinformed or arrogant. Most of us are guilty of taking a stupid position or acting stupid at some time in our lives. I do not believe many pilots that do stupid things survive long enough to repeat them very often. So to fix stupid things pilots do, first you need regs or recommendations to back up the position. Second, call the person out, with tact if you must(depending on how big the person is, if they are packing, are a Tae Kwon Do instructor of work for the FAA), pointing out the threat to your life, the threat to the lives of people on the ground and general safety. If that fails and you survive the encounter, call the FAA. That is usually a good cure. (Keep in mind I called these stupid acts, I did not call anyone stupid. Most people do not get the difference until you point it out. People that repeat the behavior over and over again, after being advised of the behavior are leagally considered morons. The word moron does not discriminate on the basis of sex, race, hair color, religion, national origin, handicap, etc. and to my limitied knowledge is almost universally understood everywhere, except in France(just Paris), where hand gestures are always required to complete any civil conversation.)

Case in point. Last Saturday, a pilot flying a RV-8 was heading north. He made several attempts to contact Atlanta approach. After three attempts, a kind 172 pilot pointed out to our intrepid aviator that he would never get Atlanta approach 0n 123.05. The RV-8 pilot checked and sure enough his POS PS audio panel was set to comm 2, not comm 1 with 119.8 set in the active box. He could have blamed it on the poorly visible in direct sunlight LEDs on the audio panel, but the mistake was human in nature, corrected with the assistance of tactless 172 driver and the lesson was learned. I will always hold my hand over the LEDs to insure my POS audio panel is set properly and if possible never buy this brand of equipment again! See two lessons learned without harm to anyone, except my ego! It worked!

If you want to know how I really feel, send me an e-mail. Time for coffee so I can get fired up for another day wasted taxes and high gas price! At least they can't figure out a way to tax this beautiful smoke filled sunrise yet.

FWIW
 
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My issue is that "proper" landing technique at uncontrolled fields seems to be a well kept secret. If I ask 3 instructors the same question, I get 3 different answers. I'll bet I have the same problem here. Appologies for my poor technique, and I'll keep searching for the "correct" answers. Come to think of it, how will I know the correct answer when I hear it?

Example:
Active runway is 27. Left-hand pattern. I'm approaching from the north. Do I:
1) Enter the pattern on downwind at a 45 from the north?
2) Enter the pattern on crosswind from the north?
3) Overfly the field (what altitude?), descend south of the field, and enter downwind on a 45 from the south?
4) Something else?

Is the answer different depending on how much traffic there is?

Maybe it's like quantum physics and there is only some probability of being correct, depending on local customs, traffic, and who's watching.

Experience shows me that uncontrolled fields are...well...UNCONTROLLED. Probably OK when there are 5 landings in an hour. But in NJ, at an airport with a primary flight school, with a T&G every 30 seconds, it seems like there should be more control (or at least more self-control).

As they say, "A good pilot is always learning".

Cheers,
 
thallock said:
If I have to go around because some yahoo is doing a straight-in 10 mile final, then you have wasted my time, for your own convenience.
Tracy.
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If you have to go around because of my 10 mile final your pattern needs some serious work!! :p

Seriously though, I need to read up because my understanding is the TP procedure is suggested not required. And second Tracy, I clearly stated I work in with other traffic, it's just that there usually isn't any so straight in works fine and inconveniences[sp?] no one.

Grant
 
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Rick of Austin said:
Grant,
I must say that you flying straight in approaches is adding risk to everyone else. To admit that you do it to save a few cents is disturbing.
Even though you make the radio calls when we are out there in our Luscombes and other no radio planes we look for traffic where it supposed to be.
Plus isnt it illegal?
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No, I do it because I feel it's safer, saving 10-15 dollars a flight is just a bonus.
 
Lots of great posts and entertaining reading. Too bad we are "preaching to the choir" on this. The problem pilots are those who are not active in self education - i.e. participating in web forums, reading pilot related books and magazines, etc..
For me, becoming a better pilot is an ongoing process, whether I am in the plane or somewhere else.
 
Proving the Point!

grantcarruthers said:
No, I do it because I feel it's safer, saving 10-15 dollars a flight is just a bonus.
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BINGO! The question should be, does everyone else feel "safer"?
 
Complaining may feel good but does little good

Brantel said:
What is up with the fact that people seem to be totally disregarding uncontrolled airport procedures?

Whats up with people these days?
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This has been going on for decades. I detect a little indignancy in your post. I can relate but I have given up and have a few survival methods I now use. However they don't call it "Uncontrolled" for nothing.

Not that I don't agree with you, you are right. However you can complain all you want but really you have few choices:

-You can avoid the airport
-You can go talk to the person
-You can call the FAA or airline and make a complaint​


Complaining is fun I guess, but my advice is put your head on a swivel.

-Planes don't need a radio or transponders in many cases

-The FAR's are very general about un-controlled airport Ops (IF you need to make a turn, make it to the left unless noted otherwise.)

-The AIM is more specific but nothing says you MUST make a 45 to downwind entry, e.g., you can make a straight in. Instrument approaches are straight in. (Note: The AIM is not the LAW, the courts have set president, its regulatory in nature. Not following it can mean the catch all - reckless operations.)


Twice I got out of my plane and walked over to the pilot I had just shared the pattern with in a scary way.

-Once doing T/G's with a student, another plane doing t/g's (no radio or calls in the blind) was doing the pattern at 500 feet agl. We flew back to home field and behold, that same plane landed at our field and parked next to us. It turned out to be an instructor (I think) with a student? The instructor did not speak english well? Never figured it out, but I told them the errors of their ways and they seemed complaint. He was in the tree tops flying the pattern as if no one in the world existence.

-The second one was a guy flying a Yak military plane (big single like a T-6). He decided he would fly the downwind 200-300 feet higher than pattern and the other planes in the pattern, pass planes on downwind from above and than dive down thru the pattern to land. I chased him down on the ramp. I was a little mad when I saw his belly go by and dive into the pattern. His theory was he flew faster, so HE DECIDED this would make it easier for him. I was in a RV-4 doing 110-115 mph flaps up downwind when passed. I told him how close he came and what a bad idea it was. He listened and seemed agreeable. Never saw him in the pattern again. Now in the pattern I look above and behind as well, aka swivel. Live and learn. I almost got landed on by another plane on the down wind.​

Uncontrolled airports are one of the most dangerous places and ripe for possible close calls and mid-air's. I guess the old saying, deal with it, comes to mind. I find most pilots are pretty good, but it only takes one to ruin you day.
 
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