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Whirlwind Propellers and what now?

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patterson

patterson

Well Known Member
Patron
(previously posted in VAF Classified)

Response from a WW151 user to the recent grounding of many of our props...

Randy,

I've been silent on this because I wanted to see what the truth vs the rumor actually was before I spoke. I carefully read all the work that you did to check out the various props. Being a first time builder, I needed lots of "expert advice". I'm not upset with you necessarily, but with the events that followed your article

1.) Nobody actually had 100+ hours on this prop, so it turns out that most of our belief in it were due to speculation and trust in the company. We were true test pilots for almost a $9K investment.

2.) Jim did not inform any of us (in the Western States particularily) of his intention to sell his company, nor his intention to direct us to Greg at Titan for the numerous issues that have come up (cracked bulkheads, off center spinners, loose fuerrals (sic), the decline from 500 hours factory check in San Diego to now 100 hours (O-360) and 250 hours (O-320) and only in Ohio (that may have changed). To my mind, Jim owes those of us who bought his product from him, expecting easy access to support and repair as needed, the courtesy of all of the above at his shop in San Diego.

3.) I've had nothing but issues with my prop in the 170 hours flown. I've slowly worked (most of) them out, but this latest blow is almost too much.

I would like to suggest that we, as a group, should expect better treatment than to be offered to "buy" the repair to fix the latest issue for $2250.00

I hope that Titan steps up. They obviously made the same mistake we did by buying what looked good, but turned out to be a hornets nest of problems, still requiring to be re-engineered and re-designed. You think we are unhappy? Imagine how they must feel. If this doesn't get resolved they lose bigger than we do.

This prop could be a winner, but growing pains are part of any business. If Titan steps up, I can keep mine and eventually applaude them for making things right by the customers they inherited (and sold the same product to from Ohio). I don't like paying for someone's R and D. Bad enough we have to cope with the anxiety of running a questionable, possibly fatal, prop on our nose (I flew mine 400 miles home today) without being offered a promise that all of WW coustomers will be made whole, and that the company will work with us "test pilots' to make the product safe.

Ron Patterson
RV-4
 
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Ron, I hear you and I'm in almost exactly the same boat. I also ordered my prop just before the sale to Titan.

I love the performance, weight, and smoothness of this prop, but it has to be safe and reliable.

I think there are mixed messages going around, but in my discussions today there is a 100 hour service interval for all the props, regardless of which engine they are installed on, unless you buy the new (untested and unwarranted) blades for $2250 which increases the service interval to 350 hours.

For me, each round trip to the factory adds about $600 in shipping, and the $500 fee on top of that means an extra $11/hour to operate the prop, let alone amortize initial cost.

I'm currently trying to decide between the Aerocomposites and the Hartzell. The Hartzell is much cheaper, but I'll have to move all kinds of stuff around in the airplane to get the CG back where I want it.
 
Have to relate an experience with Whirlwind blades on a Subaru powered Glasstar. These are new blades manufactured in late March. After 3hrs the blades developed cracks in the tips and when you squeeze the area uncured epoxy oozes out. They recieved the blades Monday and we still havn't heard back from them. Makes me nervous about what we will get back. Don
 
Inspections

I also purchased a WW200RV from the company when it was in San Diego. I only had a couple of issues with the prop. 1) I had a seal go out at 55 hours. The prop was returned and fixed. 2) I also had the spinner plate crack (as most have). Repaired and replaced.

I know have 201 hours on the prop. The performance and smoothness is excellent. I am very satisified with the company and their service up to now.

Now, I have to agree 100% with Ron on this issue. I'm very dismayed at their current business plan regarding this issue. I'm not even sure which models it applies to. I believe the current issue involves the 151 series and not the other flavors.

I plan on composing an email to the company later in the day with many of the same thoughts as Ron. One of my concerns is that I have been a very big proponent of their product. Everyone that has been in my plane (RV7 w/ECI IO360) has commented on the smoothness and performance of the prop. I have influenced 4 other people to buy this prop for their RV's. That is bothering me to a degree.

With every problem there must be a solution. My letter to them will outline a proposed fix for the 151 issues and an ongoing plan for the 200RV. I'm not exactly sure what that will be yet.

Off hand I believe they should remedy the issues with the 151 with the company picking up all costs. In the long run this may be cheaper than the potential fall out as the sales tumble.

Everyone who has a Whirlwind propellor should consider writing a well thought out letter to the company expressing your concerns. I'd urge you to keep it civil, without threats and offer a solution.

Sorry this is so long. I cannot believe that WW will not hear us and seek a solution to the satisfaction of everyone. I'm one, along with others, who has drank the Kool-aid. Now I want satisfaction before the poison takes affect.
 
I guess I missed something - Could someone explain what this is all about? Is there an issue specific to the 151 props? I have a 200RV prop but no time on it yet. I dont see much on the Whirlwind web site - a 2005 service letter requires 50 hr inspections of the bulkhead brackets.

erich weaver
 
I am a not so proud owner of a 151 Whirlwind. I assume that anyone with a 150 or 151 propeller received the same Service Bulletin letter this week. I called tha factory in Ohio to find out more and was told that the alluminum ferruled blades were experiencing fretting and they would need to be either inspected every 100 hours or replaced with the new "H" style blades at a cost of $750 each plus a tear down fee that is prorated somewhere between $100 to $500. Just a year ago i replaced the blades at a cost of $1500.

This is getting to be one pricy propeller. It is the smoothest one that i have ever flown behind though. I feel for Titan. They bought the problems and now have to deal with them. Whether or not they want to lower the upgrade costs is up to them but would do a lot to promote their product line in the end.

I don't know who is producing the new blades. If it is still the guy in San Diego, then he should be selling them to Titan at greatly discounted prices, as this whole mess is truly his doing anyway.

Since i have just 65 hours on the new blades, i will continue to fly this summer and see what shakes out with Whirlwind. If the price doesn't come down then i think it is time for me to go back to Hartzell. Lesson learned the hard way!

Steve Ciha
 
Since this stuff was all new to me and I wasnt sure from the above posts whether there were any issues regarding the 200RV prop, I called Greg at WW today.

For others benefit, the SB issue regarding the blade retention system is limited to the 151 props. The 200RV prop has a completely different blade retention system (McCauley) and is not affected.

According to Greg, " a few" 200RV props have had an issue with cracking of the mounting brackets at the bulkhead, per the existing service letter on their website. He has a modification to the two bulkhead halves that fixes this issue, and recommended that I send mine in to accomplish this. He indicated he could turn this around within 1-2 days. To date, he has not had any recurring problems on bulkheads for which this mod was completed.

regards

erich
 
Whirl Wind Aviation Customer Service

Dear Vans Airforce forum members,

I would like to invite any of you to contact me directly with questions on the Whirl Wind propeller. I am seeing incorrect information get posted on this site, and I would like to make sure the truth is communicated. I cannot monitor this site as often as I would like, so please feel welcome to contact me via email or phone if you have specific questions or comments.

The recent service letter only affects the 150/151 series propeller on O/IO-360 engines only. All other models of Whirl Wind propellers are unaffected, and service intervals vary by propeller model and remain unchanged. The affected 151 owners that are not in warranty are being offered the new updated blades at below Whirl Wind cost. The retail price is $4500 for a set of 3 - 151H blades, and the service letter price is $2250. This service also includes additional updates to 151H specs at no additional cost.

All propeller companies will have service letters and AD?s, and some are quite expensive. Whirl Wind strives to always put the customer first, and rather than sweep a potential issue under the carpet, we inform our customers and provide proven solutions.

Whirl Wind is a company that produces innovative propellers developed specifically for the unique requirements of sport aircraft. We are here to support your efforts.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
[email protected]
Customer Service Director
Whirl Wind Aviation
 
Whirl Wind Aviation said:
Dear Vans Airforce forum members,

I would like to invite any of you to contact me directly with questions on the Whirl Wind propeller. I am seeing incorrect information get posted on this site, and I would like to make sure the truth is communicated.
(snip)

The recent service letter only affects the 150/151 series propeller on O/IO-360 engines only. (snip)
The affected 151 owners that are not in warranty are being offered the new updated blades at below Whirl Wind cost. The retail price is $4500 for a set of 3 - 151H blades, and the service letter price is $2250. This service also includes additional updates to 151H specs at no additional cost.


All propeller companies will have service letters and AD?s, and some are quite expensive. Whirl Wind strives to always put the customer first, and rather than sweep a potential issue under the carpet, we inform our customers and provide proven solutions.

Whirl Wind is a company that produces innovative propellers developed specifically for the unique requirements of sport aircraft. We are here to support your efforts.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
[email protected]
Customer Service Director
Whirl Wind Aviation
Click to expand...

Bill, I know that you are in a difficult position, but in one of our conversations yesterday, you specifically told me that the Mandatory SB applied to 150/151 series props on (I)O-320s as well.

The inspections would be much more palatable if they could be performed at a prop shop rather than the factory, since the shipping each way for a three-bladed prop is very expensive. I paid over $300 one way in 2005, when costs were lower. Also, this is plainly a design defect, and WW is charging retail labor for the inspection. Prorated yes, but still full retail.

The cost you quote for swapping out blades may be below your normal retail cost, but you are omitting the cost to the customer of shipping, and the retail labor to possibly fix this manufacturing/design issue. As we discussed, the cost to me given my location in Memphis and the 170 hours on my prop would be (conservatively) more like $3300. The 151(H) blades do increase the (current) inspection interval to 350 hours, but the 151 blades were supposed to do that for the 150 and they didn't make it. The 151(H) blades come with no warranty. None, nada, zip. As we discussed at some length yesterday would make sense if the company were willing to stand behind the blades with a pro-rata warranty to a reasonable TBO, but as it is you are asking your customer base to fund your R&D. If the company doesn't have enough confidence in the blades to warrant them why should we?

You point out that only those out of the 12 month warranty are affected. Fair enough. I think it's important to note the many if not most of those people haven't even flown their props. Zero hours. How many of the 75 or so are within the one year? Those people are also affected significantly because the value of their unflown props has plummeted. Can they get a refund?

As you know, I have been very happy with the performance of the prop. It is quiet, smooth, and the weight makes the CG of my RV-8 almost perfect. The cruise and climb performance are excellent, and I have one of the fastest RVs in my area. The company's response to this problem though, is deeply disappointing.

James Freeman
 
This is a good start

Thank you Bill for your post. Appointing a "point man" for dealing with the problems on the 151 is a good move by WW.

However....this does not go far enough. Randy Lervold has been your major RV supporter, but he now has his WW151 for sale at 60% of what he paid. He has never run it.

There are perhaps 100 or so of us that this particular SB applies to, and the complete fix (new blades) appears to be due to a poor original design, utilizing inadequately strong materials, causing potential in-flight failure.

Let's not forget that it was a propeller problem that caused the crash of the H1 replica....perhaps the most beautiful and perfectly crafted airplane I have ever seen. Days after I saw it at OSH, the Racer and it's builder/pilot were ashes. Propeller failure.

I am sympathetic that Titan may have made a poor business decision to buy WW before the problems were noticed and fixed by it's developer. That, unfortunately, does not absolve Titan of their responsibility to accept responsibility for a faulty product and bear all costs for the new blades, in San diego and wherever else you need to do this repair. If Titan steps up, like other businesses in the public sector have when a product defect is discovered, your business will flourish.

Homebuilding is a relatively small community. WW has enjoyed a huge welcome by enthusiastic builders who believe in you. If you choose to push the responsibility downhill to your customers, then I believe we will be looking elsewhere for propellers. I invite any discussion of a compromise.

Sincerely,
Ron Patterson
510-421-2316
[email protected]
 
Response to Mr. Freeman

James -

I would like to apologize for any miscommunication and would like to clarify a couple of points below.

1. The 150/151 Service Letter does not affect O-320 engines, it only affects the O/IO-360 engines.

2. The new 151H blades & upgrade come with a full 1 year / 350 hour (whichever comes first) warranty.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
[email protected]
 
James -

I would like to apologize for any miscommunication and would like to clarify a couple of points below.

1. The 150/151 Service Letter does not affect O-320 engines, it only affects the O/IO-360 engines.

2. The new 151H blades & upgrade come with a full 1 year / 350 hour (whichever comes first) warranty.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
[email protected]
 
UNFAIR!

Whirl Wind Aviation said:
Dear Vans Airforce forum members,

I would like to invite any of you to contact me directly with questions on the Whirl Wind propeller. I am seeing incorrect information get posted on this site, and I would like to make sure the truth is communicated. I cannot monitor this site as often as I would like, so please feel welcome to contact me via email or phone if you have specific questions or comments.

The recent service letter only affects the 150/151 series propeller on O/IO-360 engines only. All other models of Whirl Wind propellers are unaffected, and service intervals vary by propeller model and remain unchanged. The affected 151 owners that are not in warranty are being offered the new updated blades at below Whirl Wind cost. The retail price is $4500 for a set of 3 - 151H blades, and the service letter price is $2250. This service also includes additional updates to 151H specs at no additional cost.

All propeller companies will have service letters and AD?s, and some are quite expensive. Whirl Wind strives to always put the customer first, and rather than sweep a potential issue under the carpet, we inform our customers and provide proven solutions.

Whirl Wind is a company that produces innovative propellers developed specifically for the unique requirements of sport aircraft. We are here to support your efforts.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
[email protected]
Customer Service Director
Whirl Wind Aviation
Click to expand...


My discussions with other Whirlwind employees has revealed that not everyone at Titan agrees with the way we are being asked to fund and complete the 151 research and development. My 151 has about 80 hours on it over the past 15 months and I too purchased it from Jim and Patti Rust. As I understand it, Jim will manufacture the 151-H blades and your Ohio facility currently has only four sets of blades. These debatable facts raise several questions? What changes will Jim/Titan make in the manufacturing of these new blades? How long will it take to manufacture and replace all defective blades? What warranty will we receive on replaced blades? Why was this not revealed prior to SNF? Why not address this matter in the same way you addressed the 200 backplate issue?

Your statement about other companies holds no water here, as most of these ADs are on mature products. This product has gone from 150 to 151, now to 151-H in just a few years. This is a design defect from San Diego.

I hope the debate at your company revolves around how this will affect future sales, because if you stick it to your current customers, you may as well forget any future sales. I will need two props, one for the RV-8 and one for the RV-10, in the next three years. You can bet these will not be Titan products if I get the shaft on this prop. I think you will find this is the opinion of most builders.

Do the right thing now and your company will have a reputation of customer service that will boost future sales. If your company gives us the empty shaft, you may want to update the old resume'. The right thing to do is to replace the blades gratis with owners paying shipping. You guys including a 5 year warranty.

BTW: Doug, thanks for the prompt reply.
 
Whirl Wind Aviation said:
James -

I would like to apologize for any miscommunication and would like to clarify a couple of points below.

1. The 150/151 Service Letter does not affect O-320 engines, it only affects the O/IO-360 engines.

2. The new 151H blades & upgrade come with a full 1 year / 350 hour (whichever comes first) warranty.

Sincerely,
Bill Koleno
440-275-1540
[email protected]
Click to expand...
Bill, I stand corrected on these points, although the others stand.

I would like to ask again my very first question to you from my e-mail tuesday night: Can the factory assist those of us with -360s in finding buyers with 320s? The prop seems to have poor longevity on the bigger motors.

I would respectfully suggest that you alter your advertising as well. As I write this, the prop is still being offered as suitable for (I)O-360 engines with counterweighted cranks. There is no mention of the 100, or 350 hour service interval. (Of course the website never mentioned the earlier 250 hour interval either). Add copy on the web site includes (from your FAQ)


# What is the life expectancy of the Whirl Wind propeller? With a properly maintained and serviced propeller system, you can expect an unlimited life for your propeller. This requires it to be serviced on a regular basis, and does not include abnormal occurrences.

and, interestingly:

What is the ball park cost of the TBO and who do I have to have perform this? The TBO can be done mostly by any regular propeller shop, however the blades need to be returned to the Whirl Wind factory for thorough inspection and overhaul. The base cost is approximately $800 to $1200 for blades that have been properly maintained, and will be higher accordingly for blades that require more reconditioning. Most blade inspections and overhauls can be done in approximately 1 week.


This was some of the information I was relying on when I pruchased my prop. I appreciate that you are willing to engage us, and have some dialog, but I certainly feel that the propeller I have is not the propeller I was promised.
 
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Hey Ron - I saw the original post for Randy's prop for sale - but now I don't see the listing anymore. I have a buddy that thinks its a smokin deal and really wants to buy that 151 prop - do you know if it is still for sale?

Ron G
[email protected]
 
WOW! I guess I will be buying Hartzell instead!

I guess I will be buying Hartzell instead! Too bad, I really liked this company...

RK
 
Hmmm...

This is all news to me. I've been planning to use a Whirlwind 151 prop on my RV-8, so I will be VERY closely watching how folks are treated by Whirlwind in the next few months.

To the folks at Whirlwind: You're now on stage, and the curtain just came up. How well you perform with this particular issue will make or break a LOT of sales, mine included. I really, really want to use this prop! Please don't make me "go Hartzell" on you.
 
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Hmmm hartzel or ww

Dear WW,
First thanks for coming in here and conversing with us.

I have a LOT of back seat time in one of the RV8's on your websites 151 gallery. That plane and owner have had very minor problems if any at all with the prop. I liked the plane and prop so much that i sold my rv7 tail and ordered a RV8 and planned on hanging a 151 on it.

Now, over past 2 years or so i have watched listened and asked everyone i could about their 151. (kept hearing rumors i did not like) Seems my friend was the lucky one with no problems or maybe there are more out there, i dont' know. History and facts tell me is if i get a 151, i better budget and expect to keep working on it and buy stock in a freight company to Ohio.

Every owner and past owner i have talked to has encouraged me to go the Hartz route and i still like the looks enough to consider your 151. But this issue and cost will be a determining factor. Along with others, I will watch this closely and for sure not go the ww route if ww does not stand better behind their product and what their website advertises.

As a small business owner, I know these decisions are not easy and please don't take my post as a threat. It is not meant to be that. I simply want you to hear from a potential customer who wants badly for your prop to succeed. We as an experimental community need new companies like WW to push the envelope and give us more choices. I can understand you need/want the customer to help bear some of this, but the part i'm understanding they are being asked to pay is just too high. Is the original ww owner making the new replacement blades? And if so, why is his cost so high to fix his original problem?

Just a few thought to ponder and good luck to everyone involved.

jeff H
austin
need prop in about 3-7 months.
 
ARE WE SAFE? IS OUR INSURANCE COVERAGE VALID? RESALE VALUE?

For those of us flying this prop with under 100 hours, the most important question has yet to be ask. ARE WE SAFE? I considered Aerocomposites until research revealed a couple of major, inflight issues with leading edge delamination. While price is an important factor, the safety of my passenger and me are more important.

Second question. If I fly with this prop on my airplane, knowing about the issues, will my insurance pay in the event of any incident, prop or non prop related?

Third question. Resale value on a plane with this prop just took a $10000 hit. If the answers to my questions above are no and no, then most of us will either take a resale hit or spend three months redoing a cowl(Sam James with the 151 extended hub) and buying and installing a new prop/governor.

Last question. If we "upgrade", what guarantee do we have that these blades are any better than the ones we have now and that the company has the pockets to survive the decrease in sales due to this situation. Escrow? Is this Titan or is ths just Whirlwind?

I have discussed this with several individuals that have experience in product recalls and defective designs. All have mentioned warning signs that usuall indicate a company is positioning themselves to limit both liability and monetary exposure. The letter and subsequent posts by Bob were worded in such a way to cause concern.
 
Light at the end of the tunnel

Fellow Whirl Wind 151 owners,

As a 151 owner I was as distressed as any of you when I heard the news of the recent service bulletin and thought about the implications, both short term and long term. WW was not immediately forthcoming in working out acceptable solutions for current owners. I know I spoke with both California and Ohio people earlier this week and there was no option made available to me other than to simply purchase a new set of blades for $2,250 thereby turning my $7,500 prop into a $10,000 prop. Not good.

I have learned in subsequent conversations that the folks in Ohio are realizing that the impact of the way they handle this transition is critical to their future and are adopting a more flexible attitude. Bill Koleno has been brought in and tasked specifically with managing this issue, both contributing technically and in handling current owner relations. Bill relayed to me, as he stated earlier in this thread, that they understand each builder's situation is different and that WW needs to show some flexibility on a case-by-case basis. I was able to work out an acceptable solution with them and have decided to stay the course. I was most pleased to hear this change of position.

These forums are simply wonderful, and WW (or any vendor) would be well advised to pay attention to the "voice of the customer" offered just in this thread by WW owners. I commend WW for finally participating. I also commend all you other owners for eloquently pointing out the realities of the market, now I can make this e-mail a bit shorter since you've already covered many of the points.

While this is some serious "turbulence", the simple fact of the matter is that WW still makes the best performing propellers for RV aircraft, I know that from personal experience. I'd hate to walk away from the performance they offer, which fits my particular needs perfectly, but of course need to consider the practical side of any prop solution. That is why I initially decided to bail out and sell my prop. They worked through the issues with the spinner bulkhead on the 200RV and it now appears they are going to work through the 151 blade ferrule situation. This is good news for all of us as it means they are "getting it" and understand that their entire future depends on how well they satisfy their current customers.

If you own a 150 or 151 I encourage current owners to contact Bill Koleno directly and see what can be worked out given your circumstances. It sounds like the new blade ferrule is a signicant improvement and provides improvment in at least two other areas as well including eliminating the grease slinging and the occasional prop that would have loose blades. In the end, we will all end up with significantly better props.

My RV-3B should fly in early to mid June with it's new 151H blades. I'll report back how the 151 performs, and of course how the WW the company performs. We all should do the same.
 
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I would like to use the 200RV on my RV7 with an IO-360.
I hope WW gets these issues resolved.
I dont want to invest $$ in prop that turns into a boat anchor.
 
I just got off the phone with Whirlwind, and Bill.

I had a business career before I became a lawyer, and I now serve on the board of an aviation company.

I must say that I am very pleased with the way they are handling this issue, and I found my discussion with Bill to be helpful and informative.

I do believe that the upgrade they are offering represents a fair disposition and I will have no qualms recomending this prop or this company to friends in the future. It was immediately apparent to me when I recieved my Prop, that they do quality work, and now it has become apparent to me that they are willing to do the right thing by their clients.

Everyone will form their own opinion, but for other customers out there I would recomend that you stay calm, wait for your chance to talk to them, and form your opinions at that time. I really think they will work with each builder as best they can.
 
What a difference a day makes!

I talked with Bill and John today. While we did not agree on every point, I too feel that we will have an acceptable solution. I am waiting to hear back from John concerning the route/price I will take/pay. Both Bill and John want to work this out to the benefit of all. I will take their word and work with them to solve the issue.

On a related note, I sent the following message to Doug on May 8, hoping to let things die down and let the Whirlwind folks iron out details. As of this writing, my message has not been acknowledged.

Whirlwind Propeller 150/151 Service Letter
Doug:

Just a quick note and request. Whirlwind issued a Service Letter for the 150/151 Series Propeller on May 4th. It will probably result in blade replacement and a bill for over $2200. In talking with XXXX XXXX, I believe it would be in the best interest of all owners of this prop to limit the online chatter concerning the issue and cost, at least until some decisions are made at Whirlwind on the way they plan to deal with this problem. Could you block discussion concerning this matter for a week or so to let the initial wave of frustration pass?
 
Whoa there!

Robby,

Yikes, blocking discussion seems a bit draconian, not to mention in violation of the 5th Amendment. Remember that we're in the greatest free-market-economy in the world which is based on the free exchange of information and opinions. It's up to the reader to filter what he/she thinks is credible, then vote with their dollars.

It's Doug's forum and he'll make the call, but I'm a moderator and wouldn't think of blocking discussion on anything as long as it is civil, reasonably respectful, and consistent with the published guidelines. So far I think this thread has been very objective and informative and I commend the contributors for that, especially under the circumstances. You and several others have all articulated some very good points that both WW and other owners should hear. That's why these forums are so valuable and a boon to our free market economy.

FWIW,
 
randylervold said:
Robby,

Yikes, blocking discussion seems a bit draconian, not to mention in violation of the 5th Amendment. Remember that we're in the greatest free-market-economy in the world which is based on the free exchange of information and opinions. It's up to the reader to filter what he/she thinks is credible, then vote with their dollars.

It's Doug's forum and he'll make the call, but I'm a moderator and wouldn't think of blocking discussion on anything as long as it is civil, reasonably respectful, and consistent with the published guidelines. So far I think this thread has been very objective and informative and I commend the contributors for that, especially under the circumstances. You and several others have all articulated some very good points that both WW and other owners should hear. That's why these forums are so valuable and a boon to our free market economy.

FWIW,
Click to expand...

Randy, well said.

There is an obviously high level of frustration and disappointment, but I agree that nobody has crossed any lines. I can't think of anything that would look worse for WW than an attempt to silence open discussion.
(I do of course realize this request didn't come from them)

To their credit, WW is maintaining dialog, and is willing to discuss things. I remain disappointed, but the dust hasn't settled yet, and they are trying to manage a very bad situation.

People need to vent, and the Whirwind guys didn't create this problem on purpose. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that they find a way out that minimizes everybody's pain.
 
Response

First Robby states "BTW: Doug, thanks for the prompt reply."

Then he states he never got a reply?

What's up with that?

This issue needs to be discussed. If I was spent $7500.00, I would be very upset too.
 
Its my impession that the only reason Whirlwind is addressing this issue is because of the "outing" of the problem on this forum. Why would anyone want to censor it :confused:
 
Hard Knox said:
snip...As of this writing, my message has not been acknowledged. ...snip
Click to expand...
As long as the rules are followed there's no need to delete anything. (Darrell, I think the "thanks for the prompt reply" was when I shot a quick reply to Robbie in an email saying that I'd look into it").

(9pm Friday night) I'm just in the door from a week in Pittsburg doing some contract photography work and haven't have the usual amount of time to devote to VAF. I have quite a pile of correspondence to go through (literally just walked in the door - left for Pittsburg last Monday at 0600). Dog tired...or is that Doug tired <g>.

I think this thread is VERY helpful and, if handled right by the folks at WW, could be some of the best PR they could ever get (if the problems are fixed of course). At least this has been the case with other companies....

Best,
Doug
 
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High Road

DeltaRomeo said:
As long as the rules are followed there's no need to delete anything. (Darrell, I think the "thanks for the prompt reply" was when I shot a quick reply to Robbie in an email saying that I'd look into it").

(9pm Friday night) I'm just in the door from a week in Pittsburg doing some contract photography work and haven't have the usual amount of time to devote to VAF. I have quite a pile of correspondence to go through (literally just walked in the door - left for Pittsburg last Monday at 0600). Dog tired...or is that Doug tired <g>.

I think this thread is VERY helpful and, if handled right by the folks at WW, could be some of the best PR they could ever get (if the problems are fixed of course). At least this has been the case with other companies....

Best,
Doug
Click to expand...

Doug,

You always take the High Road... that's why you are so respected in this arena!! :D Glad you had a safe trip!
 
Censorship?

First, I never advocated censorship. Due to recent personal experiences with slams on this board from Bob Shendaker and slams from Darrell Reiley and Bob Shendaker on the Matronics list, I requested that an issue with the possibility of evoking emotional responses without all of the facts be delayed for a week or so to allow facts, not subjective opinion populate this type of thread.

Not to throw stones and to prove the point, when this first broke, Randy put his prop up for sale, only to pull it after discussions with WW that changed the his mind.

When I received my letter, I called several contacts at WW. Even after the letters were mailed, these discussions revealed that the possible solutions were still fluid and may very well be handled on a case-by-case basis. At that point, I made the request of Doug that I made public earlier this evening. Not to insult anyone, but when I received no acknowledgement of my message, I posted my concerns that were discussed with WW Wednesday and yesterday. These posts were only to elicit answers I had already received from WW before the posts and that I felt would be better received if answered by Bill, not me.

My discussion with Bill and John this morning reinforced my previous experiences with WW and gave me assurances in the viability of this product, the support of the product by WW and factual information concerning the safety of this prop.

For the record, Bob Shendaker, unlike others, took the "high road" by posting an apology on the Matronics List. It did not appear on VAF. He and I have no issues and I will do business with him again, as I will with WW. Both companies are manufacturers of quality products, with good people supporting the products. Everyone makes mistakes, as we are all human and can only strive to reach a goal called perfection. People like Bob, Bill and John are not perfect, but I believe the all have the goal of delivering a safe, quality product to us, at a fair price.

This issue is emotional enough for those of us with this prop on our RVs for many reasons. Relevant, objective opinions and facts are needed and helpful. My intent was to request that anything else not fuel an unnecessary fire.

As always, thanks to DR for the effort and the forum.

FWIW and IMHO
 
Whirlwind RV-200 propeller

I'm interested in the WW RV200 prop and wanted to know if anyone has had problems with it? What is the recomended Overhaul time on this prop and what kind of warranty does it come with? I was given a ride in Dan A, RV-8 and it really makes a smooth engine and prop combination. I have purchased the new IO-375 Aerosport Power engine that puts out 204hp and hope this engine and prop will be a good selection for my RV-7.
 
Robert Babler said:
I'm interested in the WW RV200 prop and wanted to know if anyone has had problems with it? What is the recomended Overhaul time on this prop and what kind of warranty does it come with? I was given a ride in Dan A, RV-8 and it really makes a smooth engine and prop combination. I have purchased the new IO-375 Aerosport Power engine that puts out 204hp and hope this engine and prop will be a good selection for my RV-7.
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Robert,
The WW 200RV is a completely different prop from the 151 built on a different hub. The only thing in common with the 151 is the blade airfoil & planform, the 151 is a scaled down version of the OptiQ airfoil on the 200RV.

There have been some spinner bulkhead problems with the 200RV which they have pretty much worked through. FYI, there is a WW Propellers group where you can find more info by perusing the message archives...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/whirlwindpropellers/
 
Great Prop

Robert Babler said:
I'm interested in the WW RV200 prop and wanted to know if anyone has had problems with it? What is the recomended Overhaul time on this prop and what kind of warranty does it come with? I was given a ride in Dan A, RV-8 and it really makes a smooth engine and prop combination. I have purchased the new IO-375 Aerosport Power engine that puts out 204hp and hope this engine and prop will be a good selection for my RV-7.
Click to expand...

I've posted this before but here is my experience with the RV200 prop on my ECI IO360. My prop was purchased from WW when it was operated by Jim Rust out of El Cajon CA. My first flight was Dec. 23, 2005.

During the first few hours the prop was surging and did not respond smoothly to power inputs. The best analogy I can give you is imagine driving a manual transmission car and letting the clutch out to get going. Then just letting the clutch go on the last inch of travel. The prop would accelerate rather smoothly then suddenly grab. Admitedly I did not have a lot of experience with constant speed operation but didn't think this was quite normal. It only occurred if quick power changes were made.

At 55 hours a seal in the hub went out and oil poured from the roll pins on the hub. This was the last flight I was going to make before tearing down for paint so I wasn't too inconvenienced. I sent the prop in for service. I spoke with Greg and he told me the seal appeared to have been installed improperly. He believed this was likely causing the surging problems.

At 100 hours I had the prop balanced. The guy couldn't figure out why he couldn't get a really low reading. He did make considerable improvement however. At my next oil change I pulled the spinner and discovered the backplate bracket (the pieces under the prop bolts) on one side cracked. This was a known problem that I had been anticipating. This was also the likely cause of not getting a good prop balance.

Again I called Greg and he immediately sent out new brackets. At that time I sent the spinner backplate in for the modification that was reported to be THE fix to solve the problem.

Everything was reinstalled and has worked great since. The prop was rebalanced and this time he got the reading to 0.00. He said he has never got a perfect balance on any brand of prop. He also said the blade tracking was perfect.

Performance-- There is another 7 on my field with the same engine. I have the Pmag system. I'm not sure what he has. His plane is a little lighter than mine. Throw in pilot weight difference and he is quite a bit lighter than me. At consistent power settings I can pull away from him easily. If I had to guess I say there is maybe 4-5 kts difference.

The smoothness is incredible. I firmly believe this is THE prop for the RV. Whatever research was done to optimize the prop for the airframe obviously worked.

I was very surprised about the controversy with the 151. I'm happy to see that a satisfactory resolution will come about. This was completely contrary the experience I've had with them.

I believe the overhaul interval for the 200 series is 500 hours. I'm not positive on this though. There is no reason it can't be 500 hours and hopefully increased to 1000 hours after that.

Would I do it again? Absolutely!!! The performance and customer service has been excellent.
 
Whirlwind RV200 prop

Thanks Randy and Darwin for the information on the RV200 prop. I will be watching to see how WW handles the 151 issue. I hope they resolve that problem in a fair manner so I can feel good about buying a prop from them.
 
I am about 2 months away from buying a prop. I had planned on buying a 200RV prop. I will be watching very closely on how WW handle this problem. I was affected by the superior cylinder SB. My brand new engine with a total of 0 hours on it needs new cylinders. However the customer service shown by superior and my engine builder Mattituck has been exceptional. this problem has been solved with no cost to me. It is because of this that I can recommend Mattituck to anyone looking for an engine. Two fellow builders have bought Mattituck engine completely based on my recommendations. The point I am making is that the sale on one product with good service usually results in follow on sales. If WW handle this poorly this will 100% no doubt affect their future sales. Customer service goes a long way in this industry as the building community is small and in constant contact.
I for one will be watching closely.
 
no problems

I have this prop on my 7. first flown Feb. 2005. 208 hrs. to date. Balanced, no cracks, no problems. Communication from WW has been very good. My original Data Sheet says 'Propeller inspection Required Annually or after 250 hours, whichever comes first'. This is wrong, if any one has this, call WW and they will send a corrected Data Sheet. Correct information; 'Propeller Inspection Required in Five Hundred (500) hrs. or Five (5) Years, whichever comes first'
 
Really?

Jack,
If that's true then you have an unusual prop. Are you running over 160 HP? Have you actually checked the "play" of the blades in the hub? mine are now exceeding 1/8" in blade #3 and #2 is beginning to show signs of the aluminum ferrel degradation.

Since I started this thread, WW has gotten the word out that all O-360's need 100 hour factory inspections, or new H-Blades with steel ferrels (which, by the way they do not yet have). after that the inspections will decline to 250 hours.

I've grounded my plane. I'm waiting to hear back from WW on what to do, but so far, no urgency or priority has been forthcoming.
Please be sure to check the blade movement on your prop.
Ron
N8ZD
RV-4 - 180 HP
 
quote " mine are now exceeding 1/8" in blade #3 and #2 is beginning to show signs of the aluminum ferrel degradation."

Ron,

Different prop........mine is 200RV "two blade" on IO-30 with 190 H.P.

Just did my 50 hrs. inspection at 202 Hours per 6.2 of 200RV owner's manual. No play, no cracks. Bulkhead brackets never cracked before the S.L. 200RV-040805 dated 4-11-05. Complied with at 50.5 hours 7-05-05. Dynamic balance done at 54.7 hours.Final IPS Reading .03 IPS. I am watching it closely. We'' see how it goes, I am happy with the prop and WW at this time.

Hope you can get your issues worked out soon. Sorry your having trouble.
 
Whirl Wind Aviation Appoints Service Center

PRESS RELEASE

Whirl Wind Aviation of Austinburg, Ohio and Ameritech Industries, Inc. the parent company of American Propeller Service and Eagle Engines of Redding, California, are pleased to announce that they have entered into a Service Center/Sales Agreement to better assist owners of Whirl Wind propellers.

American Propeller Services can provide pick-up and delivery throughout California, Nevada and Southern Oregon, although special shipping arrangements can be made.


For further details call us at
800-292-7767

VISIT US AT OSHKOSH
American Propeller Service ? Building B, booths 2047 & 2048
 
Hartzell's are better?

I talked with a long time pilot at the airport a few weeks back he told me years ago that he got a service letter form Hartzell telling him he had to replace the prop within the next 100 hours.......or something to that effect cant remember exactly but it just goes to show you that this is not totally uncommon.

Scott
RV-8a
151 and about 50 hrs on the new blades.
 
Straw Man argument and facts

RV8A2001 said:
I talked with a long time pilot at the airport a few weeks back he told me years ago that he got a service letter form Hartzell telling him he had to replace the prop within the next 100 hours.......or something to that effect cant remember exactly but it just goes to show you that this is not totally uncommon.

Scott
RV-8a
151 and about 50 hrs on the new blades.
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Scott my friend not saying it can't or did not happen but Facts please? (Model #, Service Letter #, reason for recall)

I am not doubting you, but pointing your finger at Hartzell to justify Whirlwinds issues is a "straw man" argument. Woo Woo, my life depends on a Hartzell so please be specific, it may affect me. BTW, service letters don't ground or recall props, not even AD's necessarily do that.

Read the story of a fellow RV-8'er who got his Hartzell serviced at the service center, on the cover page of Vansairforece.net this week. Pretty impressive service.

"Hartzell's are better?" I see was a sarcastic title to your post. WW's problems are independent and unique. There company is independent and unique. Hartzell has nothing to do with it.

I restrained my self about making comments in this thread and did not comment, because it does not affect me. I have been outspoken about my concern with all small prop companies. I also have been outspoken enough in my opinion Hartzell gives the best value, performance, customer service and reliability, thus a better choice for RV'ers in my opinion. Perfect? No of course not, all props are man made and mechanical systems.

I am sure WW will work it out, and from what I read they are doing a good job. I would never make fun or gloat about this situation, because I KNOW it could happen to me and my Hartzell in some other way. We forget these are complicated high performance machines with parts under tremendous loads while being super reliable (safe). However to slam Hartzell to make WW seem better does not make sense to me, especially if you are not specific. I just like facts, especially when some one makes a comment about a part that my life depends on.
 
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yakdriver said:
Have to relate an experience with Whirlwind blades on a Subaru powered Glasstar. These are new blades manufactured in late March. After 3hrs the blades developed cracks in the tips and when you squeeze the area uncured epoxy oozes out. They recieved the blades Monday and we still havn't heard back from them. Makes me nervous about what we will get back. Don
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Well we got the repaired blades back from WW and after 5mins the cracks reappeared and threw uncured epoxy all over the front of the airplane. They are now building new blades but I don't know if I will ever trust that prop ever. I thought about going with a WW on my 7 but went Hartzell. Don
 
Add another interested party to the discussion...

I think I speak for many when I say I'm another lurker that has been watching the Whirlwind propellers and following this and other discussions and thinking strongly about buying one. I *love* the performance reports, the reported smoothness, and the very light weight. However, I am watching and waiting to see what happens before wading out there with my $7500 for a -151.

I have a Hartzell in a box that I just cannot bring myself to mount for all the weight and weight-induced installation complications it will present in my application. Please Whirlwind -get the situation fixed! -we're pulling for you!

Scott Spencer
 
Also... I'd love to know how many of the people with -151 ferrule issues have been running them on engines beyond 160 hp.
 
I have about 20 hours left on my Whirlwind 151 before i need to get it checked by the factory. Those of you that have already had your props checked and any repairs made, I would like to hear of your experiences. When I talked to Bill Koleno at Oshkosh, he was saying that they no longer think that the blades necessarily need replacement, but the bearings in the hub do.

Is there any warranty associated with the upgrade? Thoughts and opinions much appreciated.

Steve Ciha
 
i'm thinking of flying to Ohio next month for a P-51 gathering. maybe i should stop by the factory and have my prop OH or checked out at 350hrs. ? rv200
 
State of Play

I was doing some research on props for RV8's and came across this thread. I am wondering what the current state of play with the whirlwind props is and if the issues have been solved and the product, at the moment I am considering either the Catto or the whirlwind. I like the simplicity, cost and weight of the Catto but a constant speed unit is hard to resist. Has anybody got any current experience with the whirlwinds?
 
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I was a Whirlwind 151 guy, and during the period of this thread, they worked with me to get an upgrade to a 200RV, as mine did have a grease spitting issue. They stood by me and my prop through a lot. The 200RV just keeps humming along with no problems.
 
I've been flying behind my WW200C for 11 years. Great folks, great service, and people still stop and admire the prop before they admire the rest of my airplane...

The pilot rarely is admired at all...
 
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