How to salvage a botched wheel landing

I have a few thousand landings in tail wheel aircraft, all of them three pointers or attempted three pointers. So it is with a little humility that I am posing this question.

Since getting the RV flying, I have been trying to add wheel landings to my bag of tricks. Most of the time my wheel landings work out fine; however there have been a few where I have bounced back into the air. What I have done to do to recover is add a tiny bit of forward stick to stick the mains. This worked a couple of times, but one time I got into PIO so I added power to get flying and salvaged the landing with a three point landing (long runway).

What is the best technique to salvage a bounced wheel landing? For this sake of this discussion, I am taking about a bounce 1?-2? off the runway, the plane is still flying and in a normal wheel landing attitude. You know, a landing that can be salvaged safely. Thanks for your input.

Wheel landings

A couple of weeks ago, after landing at my home 'drome, a controller friend of mine pointed out that I was now current. The one arrival included three distinct "landings." Seriously, most wheel landings include a little bounce, The cure is simply to add a very slight forward stick and land again. A little trick I learned flying a Waco YMF-5 was to trim a little nose heavy. That way on touchdown all you had to do was release the back pressure and it will "stick." If you really prang it on and it bounces a little too high, do as you did and add power. Land again if there is room, otherwise go around and try it again. For a great view of it done right, watch the DC3 landing scene in "One Six Right." Clay Lacy makes a beautiful wheel landing, but it does bounce a little. No big correction, just ever so slightly nose down. The rudder is working a bit though. It's not difficult, just takes some practice.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Trim so that you're applying back pressure to the stick at touchdown. I put the elevator trim tab in its NEUTRAL (in trail) position for landing. I'm holding a fair amount of back pressure all the way to touchdown.

Consistently smooth wheel landings when solo. More challenging with a passenger and baggage...for which I tend to apply more nose-down trim than when solo.

As long as I'm holding back pressure on the stick I can usually do ok with a wheelie.

That doesn't answer your question exactly but imho it gives you the best SETUP for a wheel landing. Come in and just fly it on like that and then just relax the stick pressure as soon as you feel the mains kiss. You don't have to PUSH at all at any point during the flare or touchdown that way. It's just a VARIED PULL. Much easier to to be much more precise.

McFly said:

I have a few thousand landings in tail wheel aircraft, all of them three pointers or attempted three pointers. So it is with a little humility that I am posing this question.

Since getting the RV flying, I have been trying to add wheel landings to my bag of tricks. Most of the time my wheel landings work out fine; however there have been a few where I have bounced back into the air. What I have done to do to recover is add a tiny bit of forward stick to stick the mains. This worked a couple of times, but one time I got into PIO so I added power to get flying and salvaged the landing with a three point landing (long runway).

What is the best technique to salvage a bounced wheel landing? For this sake of this discussion, I am taking about a bounce 1?-2? off the runway, the plane is still flying and in a normal wheel landing attitude. You know, a landing that can be salvaged safely. Thanks for your input.

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Hugh,
With a wheel landing bounce, the airplane ends up somewhere between a full stall and a wheel landing speed wise - not a good situation to be in.

I nearly killed myself trying to salvage a bounce a couple years ago - a full power go around saved a wreck just before a dropped wing was about to induce a cart wheel.

After hours of self evaluation, I concluded it was caused by trying to land the airplane with a normal flare like a trike . When the mains touched the tail dropped and off it went. So what to do?

I read somewhere never, ever try to salvage a second bounce. So it would seem reasonable to try to salvage a first one if anywhere near the runway. The problem with this is the airplane is speed unstable, runway is disappearing behind, and what's it going to be, a full stall or another attempted wheel landing? It sure is decision time.

The easiest way out is to go around and try it again. That's what I did and a planned full stall landing worked out just dandy. Thank goodness as it was a first flight and the engine was overheating.

I don't think about a botched wheel landing anymore as the airplane has been converted to a -7A. Now they are easy greasers unless I doze off on final.

Modified 3-pointer

Hugh,

I wheel land my -6 very consistantly by landing in a slightly tail low attitude. From a distance it looks like the tailwheel might have touched, but it is in reality about 6 inches off the ground. Once I have good contact with the mains a SLIGHT relaxing of the stick will raise the tail back up giving you full lateral control until speed decays. My friend's -7 has a little more wing and floats a bit more, but the technique is somewhat similar.

As Dan mentioned above, I also land with the plane trimmed in a fashion that requires aft stick pressure to maintain pitch control.

Good luck!

B,
D

Go around

Go around = A normal procedure executed as needed to recover from a bad approach or landing, with out delay? I mean why not? Are you in a hurry to land.

I know it sounds obvious but so many accidents could be avoided with this simple NORMAL procedure. The old joke is there is never an approach so bad or landing so bad you can save it. Its a joke because its not true and quite dangerous. Some of the best most experienced pilots have run off runways or bounced so bad and tried to "save it", flipping planes as large as airliner.

Click me (See how to recover and not Recover)


I suppose if you have a long enough runway 3 or 4,000 feet you can add power, stabilize in ground effect with low power and than reduce power and try another flair and "wheel plant". I do all my landings as a tail low semi-wheel landing / semi-three point, kind of a hybrid. Only if real windy do I try to force it on the mains with forward stick. However for SMALL bounces just hold what you GOT, hold the stick back (in the lap) and take the little bounces while maintaining directional control. That is what I learned when learning traditional gear, hold the stick back.

RV's just don't do true three points because of the gear geometry and high angle of attack to get a full stall in three point attitude. The "A" model RV gear is better for a higher angle of attacks at main touch down, closer to full stall landing, if you don't mind dragging the tail tie down. However "flying-on" with a tad of airspeed and control is better in my opinion, but not too much. (landing or touching down fast will get you in trouble.)

Wheel Landings

DeltaRomeo said:

Hugh,

I wheel land my -6 very consistantly by landing in a slightly tail low attitude. From a distance it looks like the tailwheel might have touched, but it is in reality about 6 inches off the ground. Once I have good contact with the mains a SLIGHT relaxing of the stick will raise the tail back up giving you full lateral control until speed decays. My friend's -7 has a little more wing and floats a bit more, but the technique is somewhat similar.

As Dan mentioned above, I also land with the plane trimmed in a fashion that requires aft stick pressure to maintain pitch control.

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Ditto Doug's technique

gmcjetpilot said:

...RV's just don't do true three points because of the gear geometry and high angle of attack to get a full stall in three point attitude....

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George, I disagree with the first part and agree with the second, but they are mixed up together. RVs do true three point landings fine (all three points touch at the same time), but they may take a bit more skill, because they are not normally full stall.

Excellent Smithers, excellent

n5lp said:

George, I disagree with the first part and agree with the second, but they are mixed up together. RVs do true three point landings fine (all three points touch at the same time), but they may take a bit more skill, because they are not normally full stall.

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Agreed 100%, I always found it a happy coincident that all three rolled on, but that was not my goal or something I focused on. But if you can consistently do three point flown on, excellent stick work my friend, keep it up.

(It is satisfying when it happen. I'll push the stick forward on roll out sometimes to do a "wheel rollout", keeping the tail up as long a possible for fun.)

Getting instruction in the proper technique from a qualified CFI with TW experience is probably your best and safest bet. For a full TW endorsement, you should have been taught, and required to demonstrate, full stall as well as wheel landings. I was taught that the wheel landing is your crosswind landing, so it's surprising to me that you have flown all this time without knowing how to properly execute wheel landings. Additionally, it is wise to learn and use the proper stick technigue for deflecting the ailerons and elevators on windy days. It is rarely that I see pilots using these techniques, but if you want to be a proficient Tail Wheel pilot, I would find a CFI with TW endorsement and get checked out. It may be a lot cheaper in the long run.

sf3543 said:

...I was taught that the wheel landing is your crosswind landing, so it's surprising to me that you have flown all this time without knowing how to properly execute wheel landings...

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As always, there are lots of opinions. I live in windy country and think the three point landing is the way to tackle 20 knot or plus crosswinds. Many disagree. Sometimes I wonder about the value of these forums because of the diversity of opinion?

One wheel landing

n5lp said:

As always, there are lots of opinions. I live in windy country and think the three point landing is the way to tackle 20 knot or plus crosswinds. Many disagree. Sometimes I wonder about the value of these forums because of the diversity of opinion?

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Larry you don't land ON one main wheel, the up wind wheel? For cross wind I do a ONE wheel landing. I think the diversity in opinion is the advantage of the forum. However flying technique is hard to teach or explain with words. There is nothing like doing.

sf3543 said:

Getting instruction in the proper technique from a qualified CFI with TW experience is probably your best and safest bet. For a full TW endorsement, you should have been taught, and required to demonstrate, full stall as well as wheel landings. I was taught that the wheel landing is your crosswind landing, so it's surprising to me that you have flown all this time without knowing how to properly execute wheel landings. Additionally, it is wise to learn and use the proper stick technique for deflecting the ailerons and elevators on windy days. It is rarely that I see pilots using these techniques, but if you want to be a proficient Tail Wheel pilot, I would find a CFI with TW endorsement and get checked out. It may be a lot cheaper in the long run.

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I agree with everything you said, but a CFI who is proficient in type may not be proficient in a RV.

Most TW planes we learn in are HIGH WINGS.

I would not get RV dual TW instruction from a CFI that does not have time in type. A Citabria and Cub and RV are tail draggers and airplanes. Tail draggers are tail draggers and planes are planes to a point. Ideally a CFI who knows RV's would be ideal. However if you have good tail wheel training it transfers to the RV well. To each his own when it gets down to wheeling it on under normal low wind conditions.

Yes in strong winds or cross wind its a wheel landing. Like I say if you are not one ONE wheel and have all aileron when the down wind main touches you are not doing it right. However I don't think we where talking about strong cross winds, but a good pilot, tail wheel or not should have different tools and techniques.

gmcjetpilot said:

Larry you don't land ON one main wheel, the up wind wheel? For cross wind I do a ONE wheel landing. I think the diversity in opinion is the advantage of the forum. However flying technique is hard to teach or explain with words. There is nothing like doing.

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Ok, George, you got me there. What I really strive for in a strong cross wind is a two-pointer. Upwind main and tailwheel at the same time.

RV-8 x/wind technique

I love hearing everyone's comments on stuff like this - it is always chicken vs. the egg kinda stuff.

There's no right answer to this as far as I am concerned but there are preferences...

At heart I am a 3 pointer, but the RV-8 just isn't that happy in that configuration. So, I wheel land it and it greases on with Dan's technique of leaving a little aft stick force so that I can stick it on with a release of back stick rather than lots of forward stick.

In lighter x/winds (below 15 knots) I wheel land on one wheel. In higher winds I three point, or more aptly two point on the upwind wheel and tailwheel. As soon as the upwind wheel and tailwheel are planted, I let the other wing down, but keep in my upwind aileron. The point is that in high winds, I want to get it down with no fuss and less time with the tail ready to go.

You can keep the tail up in higher knot x/winds, but you need to be fully prepared for a significant amount of opposite rudder to counter the side gusts against the VS and fuse and keep working it. Plus the TW on the ground also gives you more friction and by definition more control.

That said, if the winds were really, really bad (a la Danny King's adventure in NM with high x/winds and an icy, but long runway), then absolutely a high speed approach and fly it on the mains and test it out. Don't like it, well you are still flying so you can get out fast with no risk.

Answer to original post

Either reset to the proper landing attitude AND speed for either another wheel landing, or if little to no crosswind, a 3 point attitude/landing. A high, hard bounce, wheel or 3 pt, is normally reason to add power and go around, unless a LOT of runway remains.

For a full TW endorsement, you should have been taught, and required to demonstrate, full stall as well as wheel landings. I was taught that the wheel landing is your crosswind landing, so it's surprising to me that you have flown all this time without knowing how to properly execute wheel landings.

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C?mon Steve, that?s an argument for a different thread.

Believe me, you can safely three point (ok two point with one main and the TW) in a nasty cross wind even with something as kite like as a T-Craft on pavement. I agree training is always a good thing but to insinuate that I can?t handle a cross wind or tha I am not in control of my craft after a few thousand landing (zero ground loops) is just ridiculous.

I love reading these threads...but they also make me question my sanity while building a TW 7 with so few TW landings, and no endorsement...

There is more than one way to skin a cat

I love reading these threads...but they also make me question my sanity while building a TW 7 with so few TW landings, and no endorsement...

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Most guys tend to adopt one school as thier favorite and will defend it to the death. Both schools work well. So hurry up and finish so you can joint he three point camp

Kahana??

I think Kahana needs to post his technique again!!

Hugh
I didn't mean to insinuate that you or any of the other RV pilots can't/shouldn't use the 3 pointer for Xwind landings, just pointing out that I was taught to use the wheel landing for that. In my experience, it is a better method for heavier Xwinds, although I have seen quite a few RV pilots make 3 pt landings in heavy Xwinds and it seemed to work out ok. It seems to work better in the low wing RVs than it does in the Cessna's, Champs, etc.
If I remember correctly, back in the 90s, the Feds ruled that if you didn't have previous TW time in your log book, you would be required to get a TW endorsement, from an appropriate CFI, in order to legally fly TW aircraft. Can't remember the date, and can't remember the number of hours required. All I know is I had enough TW time not to need to go get it, at the time. I'm sure someone will chime in on this one.

1991 grandfather clause

sf3543 said:

Hugh
I didn't mean to insinuate that you or any of the other RV pilots can't/shouldn't use the 3 pointer for Xwind landings, just pointing out that I was taught to use the wheel landing for that. In my experience, it is a better method for heavier Xwinds, although I have seen quite a few RV pilots make 3 pt landings in heavy Xwinds and it seemed to work out ok. It seems to work better in the low wing RVs than it does in the Cessna's, Champs, etc.
If I remember correctly, back in the 90s, the Feds ruled that if you didn't have previous TW time in your log book, you would be required to get a TW endorsement, from an appropriate CFI, in order to legally fly TW aircraft. Can't remember the date, and can't remember the number of hours required. All I know is I had enough TW time not to need to go get it, at the time. I'm sure someone will chime in on this one.

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Yep that is all true.

All pilots need a one time endorsement for tail wheel planes. Exception: Endorsement not required if the person logged PIC time in tail wheel airplane before April 15, 1991.

There are no min times, written or check ride, just a sign off by a CFI. As a CFI have done a few TW endorsements. It can be from one flight and an hour, to two or three flights and 3 hours. Funny thing, most CFI's have zero tail wheel time now a days. I find if you can land a Trike real well, in all conditions, the transition to TW is a non-event. If you have issues and bad habits with your Trike landings it will not go well on a TW, which I suppose is a little less forgiving, but on the other hand its more satisfying, plus the kit is easier to build, cheaper, lighter and a scooch faster.

You need the flight evaluation/training & sign off, but there are some good books and videos out there on the tailwheel topic, even for existing TW pilots. I recall one from "Sparky Imeson". He has books and videos on tail wheel and mountain flying. I recall one of his mountain flying videos showing TW technique. He also has a book. Many basic training books also go into to tailwheel control, technique and "theory". Its very easy as long as you understand the CG wants to get in front of the main wheels and you don't let it.

There are some unique aerodynamics and physics at play with tail wheel planes that are important to understand.


Both of these contribute to the infamous ground loop. If you understand One and Two, know how to keep the CG behind the mains wheels and plane pointed the way you want, you win. Simple solution is keep the CG behind the main gear and use all the controls to keep from weather vanning.

When I first learned TW I learned "Happy Feet", small quick corrections, all going back to a middle or reference position, like a tap dance. In general with little or no wind, I hardly move the rudder at all, which is kind of boring. On windy days more happy feet and fun, but still small quick corrections all returning to natural, where natural may be off to one side, depending on prevailing X-wind. The idea is have that basic position you return to that gives you some reference while making small corrections. Of course if its a challenging day, you may need almost all of the rudder and even some down wind brake dragging. Of course Aileron into the wind must be there. It does not help if the upwind wing gets picked up, regardless of rudder inputs. It's a bit of pat the stomach, rub the head coordination, but that is the fun part.

Back in the day ALL planes where "Traditional Gear". It was not until the Piper Tri-Pacer came out in the 1951 was there a mass produced trike. The Ercoupe (trike) came out first in 1940, but the Piper production from 1951-1960 where greater (about 8,000 built). Sure there where military trikes in WWII, but retracts and usually larger planes. Fairly quickly the trikes took over general aviation in when Cessna came out with the C172 in 1956 (+35,000 built) and the follow on C150/152, C182 and other model variations, all with nose wheels and built in huge numbers.

Of course only "real men of genius", real pilots fly taildraggers.