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Prop clocking?

Paul Eastham

Well Known Member
The sensenich install manual says to check the engine or airframe manual in regards to "proper positioning of the propeller on the engine flange". I presume this is referring to the "clocking" of the prop relative to the crankshaft.

The Lycoming manual says to check the airframe manual. The Van's book seems to be silent on the issue.

Does it matter? I know of one builder who had some in-flight vibrations on first flight that were resolved by changing the clocking...
 
2 Blade on a Lycoming

First make sure the ring gear is on right, it only goes on one way.
Then with the t/c marks at 12 0'clock bolt her on at the 2/8 o'clock position
when facing airplane. when you shut the engine down it will end up in the
10/4 o'clock.
see page 252 of 24 years of the RVator.
hope this helps
 
prop clocking

Hello. I have been waiting for someone to ask this. I dynamicly balance props as kind of a hobby. I have an RV-6 with a O320 Lyc. and an old Pacesetter wood prop. Since I have my own prop balancer a DSS microvibe I have tried every combination over the years. The manuals will tell you to put #1 on TDC and put the prop on @ the 2 and 8 oclock position. This is for hand propping from the 1940's. I dont know anyone who has an RV without a starter! Here's what to do. Put #1 TDC install prop horizontal check the track @ the tip should be within 1/16 use paper shims under the hub, folder material works good. 1 folder thickness will give you 1/16 @ the tip. Then have your prop dynamicly balanced below .1 IPS and you will not believe how smooth a 4 cyl 2 bladed airplane can be. Good luck
Jon Hubbell
RV-6 Flying
RV-10 building
[email protected]
 
prop clocking

Here's what to do. Put #1 TDC install prop horizontal

Jon Hubbell



Jon, Is this the way Sacramento Sky Ranch Manual suggests?
 
Balance

It is consistant with what is suggested as the smoothest position in the sky Ranch manual. He does not spend a lot of time on the subject. Got to give it a try.
 
prop clocking

The thing that i did not like was that when i pulled the power back in the pattern i got an unbelieveable vibration through the airframe. Also i could not dynamicly balance the propeller below .2 IPS, with the prop in the new or horizontal position it would balance to .03 IPS. Which is an extremly low level.
Best regards.
Jon
 
Thanks for the input guys. I'm not sure which of those approaches I'll go with, but I do plan on having the prop balanced before I fly so I may have a chance to try it both ways.
 
Paul Eastham said:
The sensenich install manual says to check the engine or airframe manual in regards to "proper positioning of the propeller on the engine flange". I presume this is referring to the "clocking" of the prop relative to the crankshaft.

The Lycoming manual says to check the airframe manual. The Van's book seems to be silent on the issue.

Does it matter? I know of one builder who had some in-flight vibrations on first flight that were resolved by changing the clocking...
Here's something to consider: say you have a little bit of grunge under one side of the prop that lets that side, 90 deg from the long axis, be 0.01" off. That means on a 6" hub, one blade will be at 0.1 deg AOA more, and the other blade will be 0.1 deg less AOA. If you are developing 200 lb thrust and the prop is operating at 0.3 CL, guess what happens? One blade will now be at 0.31 CL, and the other at 0.29 CL. That will give a thrust unbalance of 6.7 lb, which will cause the engine to cone. The same thing will occur if the blades don't match in pitch or chord distribution. You can't balance this out, although dynamic balance might get rid of it at a certain rpm or power. The stupidest thing that has ever come down the pike is that a prop with one blade is the most efficient there can be. Oh sure, that prop is developing thrust only the side it's on, which will make the engine whirl mightily in its mounts, but for how long! Aerodynamic balance is as much or more important to a smooth running engine, since the effect of it is a function of thrust!
 
Good point, but not "stupid"

Don't have any choice w/ prop clock and constant speed prop, they only go one one way (I think).

elippse said:
The stupidest thing that has ever come down the pike is that a prop with one blade is the most efficient there can be. Oh sure, that prop is developing thrust only the side it's on, which will make the engine whirl mightily in its mounts, but for how long! Aerodynamic balance is as much or more important to a smooth running engine, since the effect of it is a function of thrust!
Good point about balanced thrust. That is up to the prop shop to have both blades "compared" and set to proper AOA or pitch at each station. Obviously the process is different with fixed and c/s props.

"The stupidest thing that has ever come down the pike is that a prop with one blade is the most efficient there can be."

Single Blade Theory - It's true (not stupid :D ) from a prop efficiency standpoint, shaft HP applied verses thrust made, one blade is gives more thrust for HP applied, but again this is only practical for very low HP engines. The problem is, as you point out, practical factors come into play, like smoothness. Also pilot appeal is low. Visually we like things symmetric. It work on 40 hp cubs, one blade and a counter weight. One blade-ers are also used on model airplanes. Obviously one blade-ers where never used in great numbers and where abandoned, backing-up your "stupid" statement, however its theoretically smart, just not practical.

Theoretically its correct, and it illustrates basic concepts of prop design. Practical? When we say more efficient we are talking about fractions of 1%. Also it runs up against other design criteria. I do think you may be over exaggerating the the smoothness. Remember we are talking about one blade not two miss matched blades. Still anything over 40 hp is probably not doable.

Props are part science and part art. There is NO one perfect prop, just a endless series of compromises which are all interrelated and very depended on each other and on the engine and airframe its mounted on.

This is just like the two vs three blade debate. Engines with +500-750 HP have three or more blades because they need more than two blades to absorb the thrust, while maintaining diameter / chord aspect ratios. Three blades on 180-200 HP? I'll not use the word stupid, but its really not value added (efficient) except for aesthetics and precived "smoothness" which is really more attributed to the material used in some three blade props (eg MT wood/fiberglass bladed).

People want three blades, put them on, but you are giving up a little thrust for the other benefits. In trade you may get better ground clearance, climb, lower noise (reduce tip speed) and for some cool looks. The down side is slower cruise/top speeds. As you go up in HP and plane speed with turbo-props, like single blades, you practically can't use two or even three blades and need to used more blades. Typically you see 3 and 4. However there are 6 blade jobs out there. Than cost and weight come into play, but with composite blades you now see more of the +4 blade props. Of course this if for commercial or military aircraft.
200px-Propeller_EP-3E_1500x2100.jpg
250px-Hercules.propeller.arp.jpg
0286308.jpg
(The Saab 2000 was produced in limited numbers but could top out just shy of Mach 0.63! (368 kts/423mph) @ FL250)
 
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prop clocking

You can change the position of a constant speed to but it takes a little work. You have to change the drive bushings in the crankshaft flange. You can do this if you like since this is an experimental! To comment on the blade angle issue. Lets not worry about things that we pay prop makers big money to worry about. Lets keep things simple for a some what simple problem and go on what works from years of dynamicly balance props rotors and other rotating masses. I put this information here to help someone not to confuse them. I hope my information will save some other RV person the trouble that I went through. The info that i put on this site took me years of trial and error to figure out. 3 differnt props $$$$ and the cost of one $5000 Dynamic balancer. I hope that my method works as well for others as it did for me.
Best regards,
Jon Hubbell
N700JL Rv-6
 
Let's look at the number of blades this way: Say we have a single blade of a given diameter. The volume of air it sweeps out during one revolution is the area of the diameter times the forward speed, right? The thrust is the mass flow rate of the volume times the delta V imparted to the air. So if we have two blades of the same diameter, each sweeping out the same area, the total volume is doubled, so the delta V imparted to the air is one half for the same thrust. With a wing the lift results from the volume of air swept out by a circle whose diameter is the wing span. This volume times the delta V (downwash) imparted to the air is the lift. What happens if you increase the span of a wing by 1.414 and keep the area the same? The wing sweeps out a volume of air twice as great as when shorter, so the delta V imparted to the air is half as great. We say that the wing's aspect ratio (span^2 / area) is 1.414 times as much. The higher aspect ratio wing has less span loading and less induced drag. So increasing the number of blades in a prop is the same as increasing the aspect ratio of a wing; each blade is loaded less and imparts less delta V to the air. Energy imparted to the air is lost energy! I see people always saying that the more blades there are, the more tip loss there is, but I have yet to see them mathematically show this multi-blade tip-loss as opposed to that of the single blade. Its one of those things that everyone knows! Actually, by increasing the number of blades and decreasing the diameter the tip loss, due to high Mach, is drastically decreased. If this supposed tip loss were such an awful thing, then the fixed-pitch fan blades of fanjets would be terribly lossy! propeller design is not an art, it is a science! How do I know? Each of the propellers I have designed for a plane in which I knew the drag characteristics of the plane for which it is designed, and the engine's installed horsepower, has performed EXACTLY as predicted. The reason multi-blade props have not given as good a cruise as two-blade props is because their blade root sections are so un-aerodynamic and create both rotary drag, which acts against the engine, and axial drag which acts against the forward speed. When Tom Aberle's "Phantom" went from his 220 mph two-blade to his three-blade, his speed increased to 240 mph, at 250 rpm less! With the same engine! Then this year, his speed increased to 252 mph with a four-blade at the same rpm he had with the two-blade, plus a little more power! Before I started designing props I was told that you couldn't design a prop for a plane and had it work right the first time, that you had to keep sending it back to the prop-maker who would work his art or magic on it. There has been so much BS that has been propagated about props that has been accepted as gospel. Another is that the inner portion of the blade produces no useful thrust. If that is true, then why do my props have as good a thrust to torque ratio at the root as they do out near the tip? If they didn't my prop would not meet predicted performance. Look at your prop hub at 6" radius and see the pitch angle. The helix angle of a prop at any station is the arctan (speed fps/rotation fps). At 200 mph and 2700 rpm it is 64 deg. Figure your helix angle for your rpm and TAS and see if your prop comes even close. If not, you are throwing away much hp beating-up the air. As I've said before, your root sections can give thrust and some drag, no thrust and drag, or reverse thrust and lots of drag!
 
Let's look at the REAL tip loss. At 200 mph TAS, 9500' dalt, 72" prop, 2700 rpm the total tip velocity is 897.5 fps, M 0.83. Without correcting for compressibility, the dynamic pressure at the tip, which is related to drag and lift, is 718 lb/ft sq. At the tip, there is no differential pressure, hence no lift; but there is still parasite drag. At M 0.83, the CD of a very thin 23006 metal prop is about 0.03 at an AOA of 3 deg. A thicker section, as on a wood prop, would be higher still. High efficiency blades would operate more at 0.5 -0.6 CL with yet higher CD. Take the last inch of a blade with a tip chord of 4"; it has a drag-related area of 4 sq in or 1/36 sq ft. This would generate a drag of 718 X .030 / 36 = 0.6 lb. Multiplying that by the radius to get torque, then multiplying that by rpm and dividing by 5252 gives 0.92 HP; two tips, total HP is 1.85 or 1.1% 0f 160 HP. Half-way out on the blade at 18" radius, the CD is down to .0055, which with the lower velocity and dynamic pressure would give only 0.036 lb, or .056 HP for two blades. If you had a three blade prop of the same diameter, the blade chord would only need to be 2/3 of the two blade, so the loss per tip would also be 2/3 of the two blade, which would sum to the same power loss. Sweeping the tip only makes it look thinner to the airflow, and so it very slighty reduces CD. It's probably as effective as the swept vstab on a Cessna 152 but it looks great for marketing! Oh Scimitar, Oh Scimitar, How we do love your shape!
The real solution to having a more efficient prop is to minimize the tip chord, reduce the tip Mach by reducing rpm or diameter to get a lower CD, shaping the blade so that ALL sections have equal lift, having a true airfoil shape at the root, and sealing the root to the spinner, if possible, so as not to have it act as another tip. Now try to imagine the incredible power loss a Sport-class racer turning 3000 rpm on a 74" prop at 380 mph TAS, M 0.995, must be experiencing!
 
I've been wondering if the same people who are always concerned about "Prop Clocking" are the same ones who spent hours trying to get the dwell angle on their car's engine exactly 30 or 45 or 60 deg, whatever was called for. If some one has a proven scientific explanation of how the one-of-six or one-of three positions of a prop on its mounting flange has any effect on the smoothness of the prop, I'm willing to read the proof and add it and its conclusions to my imperfect store of knowledge. The same has to do with tip tracking. And I don't mean subjective data, such as " After I wash my car, it gets 20% more mpg!" And please don't give me some hoaky explanation based on puffs of air coming back from the prop. The delta-v of a prop in cruise is much, much lower than you would imagine, unless it has a really s***y lift distribution across the blade! My guess is that it has more do to with grunge on one side of the blade or flange as I wrote about previously!
 
<<If some one has a proven scientific explanation of how the one-of-six or one-of three positions of a prop on its mounting flange has any effect on the smoothness of the prop..>>

Paul, here's a thought; consider the vibratory motion of the engine block assembly and it's effect on the propeller. A flat 4 has a free moment of the 2nd order. I'd need a trip to the library to confirm the resulting block motion, but for purposes of this discussion let's assume the crank nose moves side to side in the horizontal plane of the cylinders. If the prop is clocked so that the blade is mostly horizontal during one of those side to side sweeps, the effect might be a bending moment on the blade. If mostly vertical there would be no bending moment, but there might be a slight change on blade AOA.

"Proven" data is probably available; I imagine propeller engineers have looked at clocking vs blade stress during strain gauge blade surveys.

There are a great many variations on this theme, depending engine, drive, and blade configuration. The engine configuration sets the block motion and gearing makes clocking variable.
 
Dan H,

That kind-of makes sense, I would like to see some more real world data, wonder if it actually makes any real world difference though? Or if the spinning prop is effectively treated as a Disc.

Interesting and I am learning a lot. Keep it up guys.

Regards
Rudi
 
<< wonder if it actually makes any real world difference though? Or if the spinning prop is effectively treated as a Disc.>>

You would treat it as a disk in some cases (ex, gyroscopic couple), but I think not in this case.

If you want to have some real fun, get your hands on a large variable rate strobe light. After watching engine and blade activity in slow motion, you won't think of a prop as a simple disk anymore.

I bought such a strobe some years ago for the study of the "variable clocking" you get with engine/redrive systems. The particular subject was a 3-cyl without a balance shaft (thus block motion is a wobble), coupled to a prop through a redrive. The redrive ratio was such that the propeller-crankshaft position relationship repeated itself every 18 revolutions. Shaft telemetry showed a clear variation in propeller load. The strobe showed the actual motions.

Actually there can be a lot of airframe activity that happens faster than the naked eye can see. Play with the strobe enough and you may reconsider flying <g>
 
DanH said:
<SNIP>
Actually there can be a lot of airframe activity that happens faster than the naked eye can see. Play with the strobe enough and you may reconsider flying <g>

Hey is that why the FAA has certian flash frequency limits for strobes, to certify them :confused: Or else the passengers will see some funny stuff happening at certain uncertified frequencies :D :p :) ;) and then stop flying :eek:
 
I'm trying to wrap my brain around how you set the strobe trigger rate for this. Did you set the trigger frequency so that it was slightly off relative to the rotation rate so as to make it scan slowly around, or trigger at some phase angle relative to some crankshaft event?
 
<<Did you set the trigger frequency so that it was slightly off relative to the rotation rate so as to make it scan slowly around, or trigger at some phase angle relative to some crankshaft event?>>

Setting the trigger frequency slightly off the rotation rate or vibratory frequency lets you see the activity in slow motion.

Safety note: You must maintain mental concentration when you're strobing a prop or anything in the vicinity. There you are, in the dark, standing near a spinning propeller. The trouble is that the prop, because of the strobe, doesn't appear to be spinning, or it seems to be just lazily clocking around quite slowly. A mental lapse can be fatal.
 
I looked at the data but I must have missed the reason that the change in clocking affected the vibration.
 
Way to go Mike. Hard data, not "feel". This is the sort of example we really need in sport aviation.

Did you happen to capture data for a horizontal transducer with 1-7 clocking? Didn't see a link to that.

Like Paul, I'm real interested in the "why".

Initial impression only, no serious thought, just a "maybe" place to start. Theory says a flat six has no external first or second order vibratory moments. In other words, all the combined inertias of the rotating parts cancel each other, assuming perfectly rigid engine components, in particular the block and crank. In this perfect theory there is no block motion and you should be able to balance the prop at any RPM regardless of clocking. However, prefectly rigid engine components are impossible, in particular with a layout like the IO-540. The whole thing bends and twists because each individual cylinder/crankthrow set has its own inertias and moments, the crank is long, and the lightweight case is minimal.

BTW, a flat four does have a second order moment, so don't get confused as discussion proceeds.

The Bosch Automotive Handbook has a few good pages on engine balance. Let me know if you want a scan. Probably some stuff in Taylor and in DenHartog too.

Interesting stuff indeed. Sure hope Les will post his thoughts. I'm just a dumb redneck hobby guy.
 
What we're discussing here is that a particular position of the propeller relative to the airframe when the power pulses occur has an effect on the smoothness of engine operation. I'm starting to wonder if LoPresti might have been on to something when he put an extended trailing edge on his prop blades so as to give a pulse into the induction intake during the intake stroke, but for another reason. When you look at tuned intake systems, the tuned length goes from the piston clear out to the inlet. I wonder if it is possible that the rarefaction induction pulse traveling out to the inlet may be influenced in its reflection by the presence of the propeller blade somewhere in front of it. Also, at part throttle, there is actually a positive pressure pulse that leaves the cylinder since the cylinder is near static pressure following the exhaust, which means that it is at higher pressure than the intake manifold with its pressure drop across the throttle valve. 'Just cogitating!
 
First of all, thanks to Mike for doing a great job on collecting the data and correlating his subjective comments to real numbers; it is extremely valuable information to me. Cabin vibration is so very subjective that it becomes very difficult to troubleshoot and assist customers over the phone when all we have is, "it shakes." Mike's methods and data can be used by everyone to determine if they have a vibration that is worrisome or not. It also sets an example for everyone to get a spectrum plot from their dynamic balance tech each time they have their "system" balanced.

There are several variables that affect cabin vibration levels, propeller indexing on the crankshaft is just one of them. I have other data that prove indexing can affect vibration levels on certain applications, Mike's data is just another good example that I've added to my files. I haven't yet found a good engineering or scientific explanation why this is true sometimes, I only have a general idea why. Indexing affects the 1/2 and 1-1/2 orders most, these are the normal 4-stroke combustion frequencies. It seems indexing's influence is most noticeable on aircraft with relatively high power loadings. It is also more sensitive to 2-blade propellers and propellers with higher polar moments of inertia. It has something to do with the where the propeller's yaw/pitch polar moment major axis is in relationship to the plane of the front crankpins. I think it is a matter of the where the inertia/combustion forces of the forward cylinders are reacted, either into the propeller or into the airframe. If the propeller is positioned such that it is "fighting" the engine, then more of the vibration is probably reacted into the airframe resulting in higher cabin vibration levels.

As Mike's data suggests, there is probably an optimum position for a given RPM range, one postion doesn't reduce vibration through the whole RPM range, it just moves the peaks and valleys. Also, indexing affects propeller stresses. DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT change the propeller indexing from what has been approved, it could adversely affect propeller stresses. There could also be other reasons why the propeller is indexed a certain way; to facilitate hand propping, to sync prop and exhaust pulses for noise reduction, or to sync prop pulses with intake stroke as Paul suggested.

I had fun helping Mike. Hopefully his work is informative to all.

Les Doud
Hartzell Propeller
 
Please excuse my ignorance

If a prop is indexed at 1/7 o'clock on a flat four with a piston at TDC that means, I think, that the prop will be about 90 degrees to the plane of the cylinders when maximum combustion pressures are reached in the cylinders (I am guessing 25 or 30 degrees ATC). Maximum pressures would seem to correlate with maximum impulse to rock the engine from side to side, which flat fours do. Having the prop offset 90 degrees from max impulse would seem to reduce the amount of rocking energy sent into the prop blades. That energy could bend the blades, which would then rebound and return the energy to the crankshaft. What I am trying to say is that the 1/7 indexing would keep vibration down. Does this make sense to anyone? I really don't know anything about this subject, I'm just thinking outloud from first principles. Please correct me if I have this wrong. Thanks.
 
Thanks for coming to the forum Les and giving your expertise. We have done good work here! The vib numbers are extraodinary and after a couple hundred hours on the new clocking, its awesome! To reduce the the vib levels 85% is pretty remarkable. What a joy now to cruise around with a turbine like feel.
Best,
 
Prop pulse

Paul

Is Lo Presti's work on clocking and induction written up somewhere?

Interesting data point in Kent Paser's book too which suggests something to be gained by coupling the prop to the intake at the right time.
 
lesdoud said:
Also, indexing affects propeller stresses. DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT change the propeller indexing from what has been approved, it could adversely affect propeller stresses. There could also be other reasons why the propeller is indexed a certain way; to facilitate hand propping, to sync prop and exhaust pulses for noise

Les,
As I understand it, Lycoming could care less where the prop is clocked. Is this accurate?
Further, Hartzell does care as it could adversely affect propeller stresses. Is there any way for all these experimental guys to know if its ok to try clocking off the standard position? Are there any rules to go by in this decision? Or is it an engerineering judgement based on testing data?

Thanks
 
Kahuna may well be "right on" about orienting the prop blades on a 2 blade prop in line with the #1 crank pin to reduce or eliminate resonance.

I too was experiencing very bad vibration in the 1400-1900 RPM range + overall rough running even in the upper RPM ranges with my 0-360 & McCauley constant speed prop combo in my RV6. The engine was a counterweighted 0-360-A1F6D out of a Cessna 177 Cardinal and the prop was a McCauley off a Mooney 201 (which uses a Lycoming I0-360-A3B6D). The Lycoming I0-360-A3B6D in the Mooney 201 uses the exact same counterweighted crank as my 0-360-A1F6D Cardinal engine did, and the McCauley hub on both applications is basically the same item; however, the prop blades are entirely different between the two. I figured that was really no big deal, but I was dead WRONG!

The wider (& mean looking) paddle blades that are used on the Mooney version McCauley prop run extremely rough on my 0-360-A1F6D engine and really scare the **** out of me due to the reasonant vibrations it exhibits when throttling back thru the 1400-1900 RPM area, so much so that I was about to junk those McCauley blades and have Whirlwind install their 200RV composite blades in my McCauley C214 hub in order to eliminate the vibration problems I was experiencing when I read this post awhile back. I then decided to reorient my prop from the 1/7 o'clock position that is used on my 0-360-A1F6D Cardinal engine to the 3/9 o'clock position that Kahuna was recommending, but to do so required reorienting 4 of the prop flange bushings in the prop flange (which also required buying 2 $$ new ones so that the ring gear position is maintained relative to the #1 crankpin). In the process of determining which new prop bushings I required I then discovered from the Lycoming prop flange bushing service instructions that almost all Lycoming 0-360 & I0-360 engines orient the prop in the basic 1/7 o'clock position EXCEPT for a handful of them, one of which is the I0-360-A3B6/A3B6D engine used in the Mooney 201. Guess what they had for their prop orientation...it was oriented in the 3/9 o'clock position from the factory, the same that Kahuna advocates for most applications. It turns out that I never had my McCauley Mooney 201 prop oriented correctly on my Lycoming engine from the very beginning, and that hopefully is what is causing the BAD resonate vibrations I'm experiencing. Reorienting it back correctly into the 3/9 o'clock position should thus eliminate alot of the vibration problems I'm having based on Kahuna's tests, which is obviously what both Lycoming & McCauley already knew since they went out of their way to specially orient that prop/engine combination in that position (unlike 98% of all the other prop/engine applications currently out there!).

I'll let everyone know my results when I complete the reorienting of my prop after I receive my new bushings! Meanwhile, others on this board that have McCauley props may want to check and make sure that they have them indexed properly as shown in the Lycoming prop flange bushing service instructions since the McCauley props seem to be oriented differently that the Hartzell props.

By the way, it appears that the McCauley paddle blade prop off the Mooney 201 is EXTREMELY efficient and just as fast as the Hartzell BA prop (I get 213 mph cruise @ 8000' with a 180 HP 0-360 in my RV6 with that prop), and it has a phenominal climb & acceleration due to the wide chord blades similar to the Whirwind 200C aerobatic prop. The McCauley blades are much thinner that the Whirlwind blades though, which is probably why it is so fast since it has less drag (it also performs much better at higher altitudes because of the increased blade area).

I sure hope reorienting this prop eliminates my resonant vibration problems, because I would really like to keep it since the Mooney 201 McCauley prop is one MEAN looking prop on the RV6!!!! (way better looking that ANY other prop I've ever seen on an RV)
 
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<< really scare the **** out of me due to the reasonant vibrations it exhibits when throttling back thru the 1400-1900 RPM area>>

I hate to be a wet blanket, but the wide chord McCauley/IO-360A3B6D combination as installed in the Mooney has a prohibited range per the above. When installed in an RV-8A, it rattles the airframe exactly as you describe.

Right now we're all scratching our heads regarding the "why" of Kahuna's results. The reasons may not apply to your flat four. It might even be a little early to declare victory with the six...there are a lot of unknowns here.

Had no time for it this week, but I'm spending Friday and Sunday on the interstate and hope to get some reading done when my buddy takes his turn at the wheel. Maybe I'll have an idea when I get back...or maybe not.

This is a Tulsa trip to have some dyno fun with my new IO-390. More on that later.
 
DanH,

Yes, I know that the 1400-1900 RPM range is a range to be avoided in the Mooney 201 with that McCauley prop. It is actually placarded to "avoid continuous operation between 1500 and 1950 RPM with power settings below 15 inches Hg manifold pressure" by McCauley though on my RV6 the bad vibrations seem to be shifted about 100 RPM lower and only when below 10" HG manifold pressure which I suspect is happening because the blades have been cut 2" shorter to 72" vs the 74" that it is on the Mooney. Still, I do have the prop indexed incorrectly in comparison to how it is supposed to be installed on the Mooney's I0-360-A3B6D engine, so that may well be amplifying those reasonate vibrations that I am experiencing? (hopefully...)

An interesting thing to note though is that the Cessna 177 Cardinal 0-360-A1F6D engine I'm using also had an operating limitation on the McCauley prop it used (which has different blades than the Mooney prop) of avoiding continuous operation between 1400 and 1750 RPM with power settings below 10 inches Hg manifold pressure. This is exactly the same range and manifold pressure zone where I am experiencing the bad vibrations even though I have the Mooney prop on my engine. This may be due to the fact that the Cessna engine I have is a parallel valve 0-360 whereas the Mooney engine is an angle valve I0-360, and thus the harmonics are slightly different? (which may cause the McCauley prop from a Mooney to vibrate in virtually the same zones as the McCauley prop from the Cessna when used on the same Cessna 0-360-A1F6D engine?) The McCauley prop normally used on the Cessna 177 0-360-A1F6D engine does however have the prop indexed differently from the Mooney engine from the factory, so hopefully it will improve my vibration problems by re-indexing to the position that Kahuna discovered was best (and is also how the Mooney has it indexed).

One other thing, the indexing issue is apparently more critical on the 4 cyl Lycomings than on the 6 cyl Lycomings since the same exact McCauley paddle blade prop with C214 hub that is used on the Mooney 201 4 cyl Lycoming is also used on the Cessna R182 that has the 6 cyl Lycoming 0-540-J3C5D engine, and it has absolutely NO placarded limitations of any RPM zones to avoid! Now it is true that the paddle blades used on the 0-540 are longer at 82" vs the 74" on the Mooney combo (that same paddle blade is cut down to 74" by McCauley for the Mooney 201 version), but you would think that the longer blades would be even more susceptable to vibration problems yet they don't exhibit such problems on the 0-540. I do like the fact that the McCauley C214 hub that is used on my prop is also good for a 260 HP 0-540 Lycoming and can handle the centrifugal stress of 82" diameter blades turning at 2700 RPM, so it must be one **** strong hub which can probably handle the 72" blades I have at 2900 RPM where I like to run at on takeoff for added climb performance!! (it's like a rocket ship on takeoff when reved up to that RPM!)

By the way Dan, did you check to see where the McCauley prop was indexed on that RV8A? It might be having the same vibration problems as mine because of the incorrect orientation? (especially if a different Lycoming engine was used other than the I0-360-A3B6D)
 
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<<the indexing issue is apparently more critical on the 4 cyl Lycomings than on the 6 cyl Lycomings>>

Right now I don't know enough about the "why" of indexing to agree or disagree.

<<the same exact McCauley paddle blade prop with C214 hub (snip).....Now it is true that the paddle blades used on the 0-540 are longer at 82" vs the 74" on the Mooney combo>>

...which means, in the context of vibration, they are very different propellers.

<<you would think that the longer blades would be even more susceptable to vibration problems>>

No, I would think blades of different lengths would simply have different natural frequencies.
 
While you are correct that the two blade lengths would have different natural frequencies, I would think that the longer blades would tend to have a natural reasonace point lower in the RPM range than shorter blades would (I may be mistaken though), and thus would tend to exhibit more vibration problems when throttled back towards idle vs shorter blades. The 0-540 engine obviously doesn't experience any such vibration problems though, so maybe the longer blades do actually help? (this may be why McCauley limits the prop on the Mooney 201 to a minimum diameter of 73" when servicing those props!)

I still suspect that the harmonics of the 4 cyl Lycs are way more troublesome for any length prop blade than the harmonics of the smoother 6 cyl engines though...just my gut feeling!!
 
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Hey Kahuna

Mike, a question please. Might seem off the wall, but...

Do you happen to know, with some precision, the bearing-to-journal clearance of your propshaft? Maybe in some assembly notes? I recall the whole range of acceptable clearances to something like .0015" to .006".
 
Mike recorded a 1/2 order vibration that he eliminated by clocking the prop in alignment with the plane of the front crankthrows. I previously mentioned the flexibility of engine components. Les suggested that the mechanics are "something to do with the where the propeller's yaw/pitch polar moment major axis is in relationship to the plane of the front crankpins." Here are some mechanics that might explain the "why" underlying the observations.

Difficult to verbalize, so a drawing is in order:

Prop%20Clocking.JPG


The first four figures illustrate any clocking that does not place the prop in alignment with the plane of the front crankthrows. For this explanation I've placed the prop 90 degrees to the plane of the crankpins, an exaggeration, but it helps illustrate the principles and the result is the same. The cyan arrows illustrate the direction of the forces applied to the crankthrows by piston inertia and gas pressures. Don't get confused; they do not illustrate the direction of rotation, which is always clockwise. Not shown are the front and second crank bearings, but remember that the 1-2 crankthrows are suspended between them.

In the first figure cyl#1 is on power stroke and cyl#2 is on intake. The power stroke tries the bend the crankthrow set toward the green blade, as does the negative piston inertia and gas pressure of #2. The bending crankthrow set rings the green blade forward.

In the second figure #1 is on exhaust. Since blowdown has released almost all the gas pressure, anything past mid-stroke is a decelerating piston inertia. Cyl#2 is on compression, a positive gas pressure. The combined forces again push the crankthrows toward the green blade, which of course has rotated 180 degrees from the position shown in the first figure.

The third figure has #1 on intake, negative gas pressure and inertia, and #2 on power stroke, a very positive gas pressure. Now crankthrow forces reverse; they try to bend the crank toward the red blade, which moves forward.

The fourth figure continues more of the same; exhaust and compression continue to bend the throw toward the red blade.

Overall, the prop moves through a complete vibratory cycle once every two crank revolutions, a 1/2 order vibration.

When you align the propeller axis to the plane of the crankthrows, the crank bending no longer drives the prop tips fore or aft. Now the prop describes more of a rotation around it's own axis. Actually it would wiggle a bit from side to side because there is a small moment arm from prop hub to somewhere in the center of the front bearing, but no matter.

Mike's data presents an interesting twist that I think illustrates a point; the above is only part of the answer. Note that he got a 66% reduction at 2600 RPM, an 83% reduction at 2400, a 57% reduction at 2200, and very little reduction at 2000. Mike ran the tests at a fixed manifold pressure (about 23 inches). I suspect an additional factor, a quirk of hydrodynamic lubrication in the two main bearings.

A lightly loaded oil lubricated shaft runs close to the center of it's journal. As side load increases, the shaft tries moves closer to side of the journal opposite the load. Viscosity drags a wedge of oil in under the decreasing clearance, and a thin, very high pressure film prevents shaft-journal contact. The quirk? The oil wedge also forces a displacement at an angle to bearing load. The actual displacement increases with load and decreased RPM. See the above illustration; load is along the W axis, but displacement is along the A axis.

Now consider Mike's fixed manifold pressure; bearing load increases with reduced RPM. As RPM is reduced, the displacement angle for axis A becomes greater. The new prop alignment has the prop axis in the plane of the crankthrows, but shaft displacement moves the forces more and more off that axis with decreased RPM. The result is less reduction in vibratory amplitude with decreasing RPM.

These are general theories, nothing more. Some fine tuning would be valuable. Good science requires the development of some experiment to prove or disprove the theory.

One relatively simple experiment would be to strobe the prop tips. If the theory is correct a tip buzz at about 22 hz (a blurry tip) may be visible when they stop a prop with 1-7 clocking. It should be pretty much gone with 3-9 clocking at 2600 and 2400, start to appear again at 2200, and be present at 2000. If Mike and Doug wish to do the work, I will lend them a strobe.
 
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Thanks

Dan, thanks for the info----------actually makes it seem a lot clearer. Which in itself is a scary thing.

Now if only that big ol' Lyc had a main bearing between each crank throw like a Subaru does--------------


Just kidding, stop throwing things at me!!
 
Mike, a question please. Might seem off the wall, but...

Do you happen to know, with some precision, the bearing-to-journal clearance of your propshaft? Maybe in some assembly notes? I recall the whole range of acceptable clearances to something like .0015" to .006".

I happen to know not a darn thing about my journal clearance. I have looked at my log book from the engine assembly done in florida and this was not recorded.

As for all the other cool data, graphs, and images here. Its way over my head technically and I enjoy reading it. I do apreciate your efforts to make it simple for the lay man like myself, but unfortunately, you failed miserable and I DONT GET IT.

Best,
 
<<...way over my head....you failed miserable and I DONT GET IT.>>

Well, give it time. Did 1500 miles of driving this weekend, so I had plenty of time to think about it.

Speaking of "I don't get it", would one of you guys explain the spectrum data? What am I looking at and how is the spectrum plot different from the others?
 
Speaking of "I don't get it", would one of you guys explain the spectrum data? What am I looking at and how is the spectrum plot different from the others?

The spectrum plot is a term the device uses. It is a measurement of the vibration levels in terms of amplitude (inches per second were used in this case) and frequecy of the vibration. The "spectrum' in this case is the plotted amplitudes and frequencies of the transducer. The transducer is an accelerometer that can be mounted anywhere. I have shown a picture here for others to view as a reference of what we are talking about. This plot was taken at 2400RPM as was digitally shown on my engine monitor with electronic tack pickup on the flywheel. What this plot shows is a 1/2 order vib (engine running at 2400rpm) at 1200rpm measuring .266inches per second.
1-7vertsensor2400rpm.jpg
 
That one I understand. I was talking about this one, apparently something Les requested:

http://www.mstewart.net/super8/propclock/groundrunspectrum2250rpm.pdf

No reference to operating RPM, units in G's rather than IPS, and the values are at multiples.

I can take a guess.

3,6,9,and 12 are major orders for a six cylinder engine, 1/2, 2-1/2, 3-1/2, 5-1/2, 6-1/2, etc are minor orders.

If I assume your operating RPM was 2243, 1118 RPM is the 1/2 order, 2243 is 1st, 3365 is a 1-1/2 order, 4493 is a 2nd order, 5608 is a 2-1/2 order. 5894 is an oddball, one that I'm curious about. 6734 is 3rd order, 7851 is a 3-1/2 order, and 8958 is a 4th order.

Note the values for 2xP1, 5xP1, and 7xP1, the 1st order and the two lowest (2-1/2 and 3-1/2) minor orders. As I would expect, they are the highest three amplitudes (.45, .63, and .60). I'm surprised the 3rd order amplitude (6xP1) isn't higher; 3rd is a major order. Perhaps the engine mounts are tuned for isolation centered on this frequency; transducer was on the airframe, not the engine. I'm guessing 3xP1, 4xP1, and 8xP1 are harmonics of the 1/2 and 1st orders. I am clueless about P2. And I could be wrong about most of it

I'm way out on the bleeding edge of my knowledge here. Mike, Les, please tell me what we're really looking at (or looking for).
 
Propeller Mounting?

Couple of questions:-
1. How is the propeller "clocked" relative to the front crankshaft flange on a Lycoming O360-A1A? There are a pair of shorter "nuts" on the flange - is that significant?
2. I am using a Sensenich fixed pitch aluminum prop with a spacer. How tight should the fit of the pins on the spacer be in the holes on the prop? Mine seem very "snug" and I don't want to press it on until I have finished the spinner fit up.
Jim Sharkey
RV6 Tip-up
"We're getting there!"
(As the old Britsih Rail TV ad used to boast!)
 
Found it!

1. Drawing C4 shows the blades of the propeller aligned with the short "nuts" on the crankshaft forward flange.

2. The pins on the spacer measure 0.500" dia and the holes in the propeller measure 0.495" so I assume that the spacer is an interference fit and meant to be installed "once and for all".

Jim Sharkey
 
2. The pins on the spacer measure 0.500" dia and the holes in the propeller measure 0.495" so I assume that the spacer is an interference fit and meant to be installed "once and for all".

Jim Sharkey

Yes. If you do a web search for "sensenich install instructions" you will find a PDF describing the factory's recommendations.

Be very careful when pounding the spacer in so as not to damage the prop, and you may need to buy a bigger mallet. If you have a prop shop nearby I would recommend taking it to them and have them do it on their press.
 
Yes. If you do a web search for "sensenich install instructions" you will find a PDF describing the factory's recommendations.

Be very careful when pounding the spacer in so as not to damage the prop, and you may need to buy a bigger mallet. If you have a prop shop nearby I would recommend taking it to them and have them do it on their press.


Thanks for the "heads up" Paul.
Jim
 
I left my prop outside in the sun for a couple of hours to heat up and put the pins in the freezer. This made assembly easy with only light tapping required. If there's no sun in your part of the world you could try a room heater or heat gun on the hub.
regards Graham
 
McCauley Reclocking

This weekend I pulled the McCauley Mooney 201 prop off my RV6 to reclock it so that the #1 blade was located in alignment with the #1 crank pin and I discovered something unexpected. It turns out that the McCauley C214 hub has the blades aligned halfway in between the drive bushings (30 degrees out of phase with them) vs a hartzell prop that has the blades in line with the drive bushings. This means that it is impossible to line the blades up with the #1 crank pin when using a McCauley prop! (at least when it is a C214 hub that is being used) The best that can be done is to get it clocked within 30 degrees which is how it is done on the Mooney 201 Lycoming engine that this prop originally came off. Previously the blades were located 90 degrees from the #1 crank pin when using that prop on the Cessna Cardinal engine I have in my RV6 which is the worst position possible for vibration purposes as the diagrams previously posted show.

I do currently have a 1 5/8" prop spacer to fit the McCauley prop into a long RV6 type cowling, so I could possibly get this McCauley prop to line up with the #1 crank pin by having another prop spacer machined that shifts the blades 30 degrees in relation to the crank flange drive bushings (this would require bolting the spacer on the crank flange first with its own set of bolts, and then mounting the prop to the spacer with its bolts into special bushings pressed into the spacer in drilled holes from the crank flange side). I wonder if all of this is really worthwhile or not to do?

By the way, I wasn't able to test the new reclocked position since one of the long drive bushings I removed to mount a short one in its place turned out to be a .005 over bushing size, so I now have to wait another couple of weeks until I can get a new oversize short bushing...jeez this is just getting to be a complete pain in the ***!!!
 
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