Dual or Single P-Mags

Not sure if this has been hashed out at length, but I'm getting within a month or so of getting an engine on order. I had originally thought about going with dual P-Mags but have recently been giving thought to going with just one so to have one P-Mag and one Slick.

Any opinions; good, bad? I'd be interested in hearing both sides of this one.

Jim

Check this thread

Jim, you might find what you're looking for here

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=475&highlight=p-mag

While you are at it

I guess if you are starting from scratch it may be cost effective to go with dual EI. Adding a second EI does not give the gain the first EI does, but it does add a little. Cost wise if starting from scratch, dual EI. If there is a big price difference and you are on budget consider one EI. The first EI gives you +80% of the benifit. On the mags defense they are rock solid and very reliable.

I notice some new engine build up companies like Mattituck give you very good deals and credits on options like EI. Where I recall Superior engines, thru Superior, are kind of a rip off! They basically just add the cost of EI on top of the engine cost, with little or no credit on the mags. What a rip off if that is correct. If that is the case, I'd just get the mags, sell one or both and buy my own EI. I don't like paying double for things. Actually I'd go with Mattituck before buying Superior direct.

Find out what kind of AOG (Aircraft On Ground) Service they have.

I sent mine back next day air for an update at a cost to me of $96.81 on Monday 11 Dec 2006. I got an email Tuesay 12 December 2006 that they were upgraded and were being sent out. On Friday, they were not here for the planned Saturday install. They were not here Saturday either. They arrived by USPS $8.10 Flat Rate today.

I do not want a system needed to fly my airplane that cannot be field repaired and the manufacturer does not respond quickly to return an aircraft to flight.

Had I been on a trip, I would have had hotel bills and expenses that could have ran over $1,000 or left to find another way home then back to the aircraft.

UNACCEPTABLE !

One friend of mine did the same return after his airplane got stranded 7 miles from his home base. His misfortune is why mine went back. He asked to have them sent back to him over night and they also were sent the same way mine was. He got his on Saturday.

The reason for sending them back was that his jumped timing and kicked back trying to start. The logic timing that is set when you BLOW in the MAP pressure line to set timing at TDC jumped back to the mechanical timing. The mechanial timing is not set up when you just stick the unit in and set the logic timing with the MAP pressure pulse. This could break a starter off the engine.

I have told emagair air that I want my money back. Their response: "

I do not want a system in my airplane that cannot be serviced in the field or that can leave me STRANDED away from home.

AOG service should be available to send out a complete system if needed then the bad removed system can be returned.

Maybe I fly too much. 1,972 hours in just over 9 years. I have left the airplane out 4 times and came home by other means. Not bad considering NONE of the times were mechanical issues. Weather was the reason each time. One of the times I left it out, it stayed out 2 weeks. I got sick and could not fly the aiplane home.

At the present time, I am not sure anyone can change my mine about NOT putting P-Mags in my airplane. I had budget for Lasar but a year ago when I ordered the P-Mags, it sounded like P-Mag may be as good as or better for less money. Was notified that they were being shipped right before Oshkosh. Ask them to delay shipment as I did not have time to install, test, and fly them to Oshkosh. Said they would ship 2 weeks after Oshkosh. 1 Month after Oskhosh, I inquired when they would ship. They forgot about me and shipped right after.

Can anyone talk me into keeping the P-Mags without having two spare ones for replacement? At the present time, I do not want them and am back to the Lasar system. It is more expensive but they do have AOG service and can get parts to me typically over night.

Did not really want to leave a NEGATIVE post but I am presently negative about P-Mags in my airplane.

VERY DISAPPOINTED in California!!!

Mags do fail. Mags like maintenance and special tools. Mags need $20 airplane plugs and pricey harnesses. A new mag costs almost as much as an e-mag.

You probably won't ever have to fix or overhaul an EI. They can use $3 auto plugs and cheap harnessing.

Mixing the two means you have two different ignition systems, parts, maintenance schedules and procedures...i.e., complexity.

I thought about one e- and one p-mag but went with dual p-mags so that wiring and switching was identical for both sides. Another aircraft has two Lightspeeds but they need a back-up power source.

Do some searching; there's a lot of forum activity on the subject.

John Siebold

I've been running an E-mag for over 2 years and have not had any problems that have required an immediate fix, and I have flown several thousand miles in that time (Oshkosh twice, South Dakota, New Mexico several times from Fort Worth). I knew going in that the system was in development - I got one of the first production examples - and wired my airplane so I could swap in a mag if required; it never has been. I have been running with an E-mag and a Slick to ensure that the E-mag did not let me down; it hasn't and I now have a P-mag to replace the Slick. One factor in deciding to buy E/P-mags was that the factory is 20 minutes from where I work.

The system is still in development (although the development effort is now toward making manufacturing easier and providing 6 cylinder & Continental versions). The next batch (of 500) will double the number in the field. Firmware updates continue to be available on a fairly regular basis as problems are fixed, the problems being fixed now are minor issues that have not caused me any significant problems. If you cannot accept any possible failures then may be 1 or 2 Slicks is the way to go?

If I were starting again I would happily go with 2 P-mags (or a P-mag & E-mag), but I fly about 100 hours a year with a few long trips a year. Brad & Tom are great people to work with, they are now taking on some addional staff to increase production. I think I went in with my eyes open and have been completely satisfied. $1.70 plugs and really easy timing are just icing on the cake.

Pete

Dual P-Mags

I agree with George's assessment of running one electronic ignition. I differ with Gary Sobek with my experience working with Brad and Tom at Emagair. All of my contacts with them have been positive and they have made more effort to support their product than any vendor I have ever done business with in any industry, including returning my calls in the evening, on weekends and on (their!) vacation. I have not had any issues with my ignitions, except that I installed the harness incorrectly. I am also of the opinion that if you need AOG service anywhere in the country, you need to be running mags, a fixed pitch prop and a carburetor...most of the airports I have been based at have not had any level of field support available that would be beyond that. I don't think anyone in rural USA is equipped to service ANYONES electronic ignition or fuel injection system. Having said that, I elected to install dual P-Mags so I had one type of plugs, one type of harness, and all the benefits of a pure electronic system. I have not yet regretted that decision.

gmcjetpilot said:

I notice some new engine build up companies like Mattituck give you very good deals and credits on options like EI. ... Actually I'd go with Mattituck before buying Superior direct.

Click to expand...

I bought a new TMX-IO-360 from Mattituck this year with 1 E-mag and 1 P-mag. I paid an additional $705 after the credit for the standard ignition.

The only down-side I see is that in the case of a total electrical failure, the P-mag must stay above 700-800 RPM or it will not generate sufficient power to spark. Not likely to be an issue in the air, but once landed, if you pull the throttle to far back, you will be pushing or towing the plane back to the apron. Need to ensure idle/minimum RPM is adjusted above the cut off rpm for certainty.

Also, no ability to hand prop on a dead battery as with a standard mag. However, because the mags require very little voltage to function, you should be able to hand prop with a battery too weak to crank over. As long as the battery holds enough power to fire 1 EI, the hand prop should be easier than with a standard mag (hotter, longer spark).

Jim: to add info concerning your question: If you go with 1 slick, go with the E-mag vs. P-mag and save the money - you loose nothing. The slick is your backup to an electrical failure so the self-powered feature of the P-mag is a back-up to a back-up. The chances of loosing your alternator, battery and slick on the same bag of gas is very unlikely. if you use an electrical system such as Z-13/8, then you even take the battery contactor out of the fault equation. Many alternate paths to glory before silence.

Jekyll

My E/Pmag story

My E/Pmag experience has been a good news/bad news sort of thing... I started with an E and P combo. The good news has been the P; no problems from install/timing thru ground runs and now 20 hrs flight time. Bad news was the Emag, it's been troublesome from the start; during initial install and ground runs it would check out fine with the lights and spark plug firing, but when the engine was running (on the P), the E was completely dead. Vibration issue maybe?

I dealt with both Brad and Tom on the phone and we sent the unit back and forth several times and finally got it running, but at the 13 hour mark it quit again. I was getting pretty well annoyed with the problem, so I pulled it off, shipped it back and requested a whole new unit, I'm done fiddling with this one. Brad was on the case and shipped a brand new unit, even upgraded me to another P for my trouble. Installed and did 3 good ground runs followed by 7 hrs flight time so far... no more problems (yet!). Perhaps I just got a lemon with the original Emag?

The whole experience has been pretty frustrating to say the least, with endless troubleshooting and head scratching, wondering why it checks out okay both on their bench and when installed and wired, yet it still won't run. I have no complaints though when it comes to Brad and Tom trying to diagnose and troubleshoot the problem over the phone and when shipping the unit back and forth. They're good guys to deal with and sincerely wanted to get the problem taken care of.

Having said all that, I really like the product; simple installation and timing, inexpensive harnesses and plugs... and it starts up fast!

Performance Advantage?

Is there any performance gain running just one E/P Mag and a slick? It seems as though there would be very little, if any. I've always flown with mags and really like the idea of the performance gains, and it seems as though EMAGAIR is the best deal.

If you fly with only one, which would be the best and would you make it the left or right or does that even make a difference?

Sorry if the questions are redundant, I'm just trying to learn.

Re: Post of "Don't mix and match EI brands"

Paul:

The answer is in the archives. I do not now how to link to the article so will paste it here. I am in agreement with George.

I desire a SYSTEM approach to ignition. As much parts interchangablity as possible. It is just as much work to retrofit one EI in to a dual mag system as it is to redo with dual EI.

With a little engine, I want the extra 1% that dual EI system gives me.

-------- insert --------
Don't mix and match EI brands
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highflight
There 'ya go then.
Go with a Lightspeed on one side and mag on the other for now. Then later when the P-mags are tested and ready, replace the mag with the P-mag and get the best of both worlds.VernRV7-A

Actually you get the worst. With matched L&R ignition you will get better performance. IF you mix and match electronic ignition you are negating the advantage of having dual electronic ignition. There is no way two different EI brand ignitions will fire at the same time consistantly. Most advantage of EI is from the first one. The extra 1% of performance/efficency with the second EI, is only if it works together, at the (same time) with the other ignition. You might as well go one EI and a mag if you are not going to have matched EI. I asked E-mag/P-mag folks about going (1) LS and (1) P-mag, they did not recommend it, but to their credit they suggested going dual LS would better or Dual E/P-mag. They had nothing negative to say about LS. There are advantages to both. BTW Jeff Rose's ignition was out of production for a while but is now available again as electoair:

http://www.electroair.net/

Cheers George
-------- end insert ---------

75 hours on dual p-mags. I did have one p-mag that failed and had to be
sent back. It was repaired and returned in adequate time for my style of
flying.

I have to tell myself that we are all beta testers if we are using p-mags.
Over time the production quality will increase. When/if these are
manufactured by automation instead of by hand the quality will increase.

If the primary complaint is that the shipping is expensive and takes too
long then an alternative source of ignition should be looked at. Each of
us flys with a different need and that should drive what we use.

Quality will increase. I see p-mags as being the ultimate ignition source
in a few years. Perhaps in the meantime it makes sense to have one as
a spare. It's less costly than a long weekend stuck at some remote airfield
in a hotel wishing you were home. And if you never use it, sell it on ebay
later when you are satisfied your units are working properly.

For me, and me alone, they are the best option. The positives far outweigh
the negatives, especially as the negatives continue to shrink over time.

How long did it take for regular magnetos to become "pain-free"?

I have installed dual p-mags in my RV-7. No flying time yet, but happy with how upfront and honest Emagair has been with me. Seems like the kinks are pretty much worked out now.

Walter said:

"I see p-mags as being the ultimate ignition source
in a few years."

Maybe, but there is a lot of anticipation for Gami's Prism system. I believe its being developed for the GA market and certification is in progress.Im sure it will be pricey, but if I understand correctly, it will let most of us operate off of Mogas and perhaps solve the whole issue of lead in Avgas. Not sure on this point, but I believe it will control ignition timing through monitoring of pressure/temperature in the cylinders. Maybe someone more knowledgable than me can jump in here - or start a new thread?

erich weaver