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GalinHdz
05-29-2015, 07:10 AM
For those of you are still unsure of what ADS-B equipment you need, AOPA has set up a ADS-B OUT Selection Tool (http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Aircraft-Ownership/Technology/ADS-B/ADS-B-Selector) that can be used to narrow your selection.

:cool:

mdevans9
05-30-2015, 07:05 AM
According to AC-700-009 issue 2 from Transport Canada, "ADSB is not being mandated in Canada in the near term." While ADSB services are available in several areas in Canada, primarily the Hudson Bay and Gander Oceanic, what I read is that GA aircraft such as RV's are not mandated as of now, nor can I find any reference to any anticipated mandate.

So, this being the case, the flowchart provided by AOPA is incorrect as it indicates ADSB with ES will be required in Canada.

Anyone with different/better information?

Best regards,

Merrill

GalinHdz
05-30-2015, 08:22 AM
According to AC-700-009 issue 2 from Transport Canada, "ADSB is not being mandated in Canada in the near term." While ADSB services are available in several areas in Canada, primarily the Hudson Bay and Gander Oceanic, what I read is that GA aircraft such as RV's are not mandated as of now, nor can I find any reference to any anticipated mandate.

So, this being the case, the flowchart provided by AOPA is incorrect as it indicates ADSB with ES will be required in Canada.

Anyone with different/better information?

Best regards,

Merrill

I think the flow chart is meant as a Selection guide helping you make a better informed decision on equipment purchase not an ADS-B requirement chart. Requirements like ADS-B can, and have, changed many times before actual implementation.

:cool:

esco
05-30-2015, 07:39 PM
The selector guide is, at best, incomplete.

As a data point, if you answer "Yes" to "Will you fly above FL180?" you are told "1090 ES is required."
True... but incomplete; the guide does not specify that while this meets the ADS-B "Out" requirement, an individual pilot will not see WX & traffic without ADS-B "in."

BobTurner
05-30-2015, 07:52 PM
It's terrible. For me it points to a UAT when in fact a Trig S-ES transponder is my least expensive solution.

GalinHdz
05-30-2015, 08:03 PM
The selector guide is, at best, incomplete.

As a data point, if you answer "Yes" to "Will you fly above FL180?" you are told "1090 ES is required."
True... but incomplete; the guide does not specify that while this meets the ADS-B "Out" requirement, an individual pilot will not see WX & traffic without ADS-B "in."

Ahhhh, this tool is about selecting proper ADS-B OUT equipment to comply with the 2020 requirement, hence the title "ADS-B OUT Selector". WX and traffic (ADS-B IN) has nothing to do with the 2020 compliance requirement.

It's terrible. For me it points to a UAT when in fact a Trig S-ES transponder is my least expensive solution.

Which 2020 compliant TRIG transponder has an MSRP of less then $1,799.00 as the NavWorx ADS-600 has?

:cool:

BobTurner
05-30-2015, 08:47 PM
Ahhhh, this tool is about selecting proper ADS-B OUT equipment to comply with the 2020 requirement, hence the title "ADS-B OUT Selector". WX and traffic (ADS-B IN) has nothing to do with the 2020 compliance requirement.



Which 2020 compliant TRIG transponder has an MSRP of less then $1,799.00 as the NavWorx ADS-600 has?

:cool:

As soon as Trig updates the software to the TT22 (any day, they say) so that I can use my 420W as the position source, I can buy the main unit for $2200, control it remotely from my GRT HX. And then sell my GTX-327 for $900. Net $1300; no new antennas or coax needed. Since I already have ADSB-in, and the 420W, the transmitter is all I need. People forget that the real cost comparison is mode S-ES, or UAT AND a mode C transponder.
A panel mount option would be the Trig TT31 for $350 more; it already reads Garmin's ADSB+ format.

Flyfish
05-30-2015, 09:42 PM
Does anybody know if the Mode S "international" requirement is blanket. For example, if you fly to Canada or Mexico, are you required to have mode S everywhere? Or is it the same as here, that is only required above FL 180?

I'm not totally sure I understand that logic. I'm mean Mexico and Canada have way less dense airspace, and if the U.S is willing to waive mode S below FL 180, why wouldn't they?

Basically I ask because I don't want to rule out the possibility of flying there. So if anyone has insight on that would be great.

BobTurner
05-30-2015, 10:14 PM
Does anybody know if the Mode S "international" requirement is blanket. For example, if you fly to Canada or Mexico, are you required to have mode S everywhere? Or is it the same as here, that is only required above FL 180?

I'm not totally sure I understand that logic. I'm mean Mexico and Canada have way less dense airspace, and if the U.S is willing to waive mode S below FL 180, why wouldn't they?

Basically I ask because I don't want to rule out the possibility of flying there. So if anyone has insight on that would be great.

The US does not currently require mode S anywhere, not in class A either. But starting in 2020 the US requires ADSB-out in almost all airspace above 10,000', plus class B and C. And they are requiring the ADSB-out be a mode S-ES transponder in class A. Otherwise you may choose S-ES or UAT. No other country is considering UAT.
To the best of my knowledge no other country in North America has announced mandatory ADSB-out. Canada has talked about it for the far north but just for the flight levels. Bermuda has talked about it. If enacted it would require S-ES. Europe is adopting ADSB, and no UAT. Only mode SES.

Flyfish
05-30-2015, 10:54 PM
Thanks for the response, but I apologize if I'm slow on this one... still a touch confused.
My question revolves around the AOPA tool asks "will you fly outside the U.S.". Then if you answer yes, it directs you to mode S options...

Maybe a simpler question might help me here:

Will I be able to fly to Canada/Mexico using:
1) existing Bendix king Kt-79 mode C transponder
And
2) Navworks ADS-600-exp

KRviator
05-30-2015, 11:02 PM
To the best of my knowledge no other country in North America has announced mandatory ADSB-out. Canada has talked about it for the far north but just for the flight levels. Bermuda has talked about it. If enacted it would require S-ES. Europe is adopting ADSB, and no UAT. Only mode SES.Australia requires all newly-registered IFR aircraft to have ADS-B, right now and all IFR aircraft to have ADS-B by February 2017. We're using 1090-ES, no UAT down here, thank you very much!

RONSIM
05-31-2015, 06:39 AM
The Mode S/ES transponders will only meet part of the out requirement ...they still need the compliant position source --

GalinHdz
05-31-2015, 06:58 AM
As soon as Trig updates the software to the TT22 (any day, they say) so that I can use my 420W as the position source, I can buy the main unit for $2200, control it remotely from my GRT HX. And then sell my GTX-327 for $900. Net $1300; no new antennas or coax needed. Since I already have ADSB-in, and the 420W, the transmitter is all I need. People forget that the real cost comparison is mode S-ES, or UAT AND a mode C transponder.
A panel mount option would be the Trig TT31 for $350 more; it already reads Garmin's ADSB+ format.

THANKS for confirming what the selector indicates. That there are no 2020 ADS-B compliant transponders with an MSRP lower than a UAT unit ($1,799.00 for the NavWorx ADS-600).

FWIW: The Dynon SV261 transponder (a Trig TT22 controlled by the SkyView EFIS) is already 2020 ADS-B compliant with the latest software versions (EFIS v12.2/Xponder v2.6).

Thanks for the response, but I apologize if I'm slow on this one... still a touch confused.
My question revolves around the AOPA tool asks "will you fly outside the U.S.". Then if you answer yes, it directs you to mode S options...

Maybe a simpler question might help me here:

Will I be able to fly to Canada/Mexico using:
1) existing Bendix king Kt-79 mode C transponder
And
2) Navworks ADS-600-exp

Currently, Yes.
Eventually, No.

The US is the only nation currently gearing up for both 1090ES and UAT. I understand China is thinking about also adopting both 1090ES and UAT, but they haven't made an official decision. All nations will eventually require 1090ES since it is the ICAO standard.

:cool:

Chkaharyer99
05-31-2015, 09:41 AM
Thanks for posting the guide.

Looking at the AOPA flow chart I'm in the "Mode S" category.

I'm trying to figure out which ADS-B out option is best for me and my RV-8 equipped with a Garmin 430 W, AFS 4500 and Garmin 327.

I do not have ADS-B in yet either.

The Stratus ESG by APPAREO looks like a good option but I don't really need the WAAS GPS position portion since I have the 430 W.

The Garmin 330ES also looks like it would work but its $500 more. Not sure if either of these are compatible with my AFS-4500.

The Stratus ESG XPNDR would be a little more attractive if had ADS-B installed. Wishful thinking.

Sometime down the road I will modify my panel to either AF-5600 or something else. I only want to spend money on a transponder once.

RONSIM
05-31-2015, 10:41 AM
but my Skyguard TWX transceiver has out and in capability, with a noncompliant GPS position. Works great for traffic and weather on my iPad with WingX and iFly, and on my iFly 740. I consider the unit just another set of eyes in the cockpit. I do have to set the transponder code manually, with this unit. The newer model mines the code automatically when you set it on your mode C transponder.

I bought the unit "used", at the right price, installed all external antennas except for the GPS and I will use it until the compliant transceivers with out and in and compliant position sources fight it out for dominance (Navworx, Freeflight, etc.).

Ron

GalinHdz
05-31-2015, 12:12 PM
This "guide" is consistent with that perspective; true insofar as "OUT" compliance, but never addresses the weather and traffic benefits of ADS-B IN to pilots and passengers.

Sure it does. Under the "Benefits of Equipping" (http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Aircraft-Ownership/Technology/ADS-B/ADS-B-Selector) section it states: "Enhanced safety and additional situational awareness from traffic and free weather information (if you also opt for ADS-B In or have a portable ADS-B receiver)."

:cool:

RONSIM
06-02-2015, 12:56 PM
If you were to install (or already have) a Mode S/ES transponder with 1090 out AND a UAT unit with 978 out, will there be some sort of conflict at the ATC end, or, with the receiver in the airplane?

Seems like I heard something that the FAA was not happy with that setup.

R.

RV3bpilot
06-03-2015, 05:29 PM
I have a Trig 22 hooked up to a cheap Garmin 72H and it works great... ADSB out... Cheap too...:)

MarkW
06-03-2015, 05:47 PM
Ron,
I believe what you are saying is correct.
I have the Garmin G3x setup and i am sending out both. There were times that the FAA would drop me. Garmin has done a software upgrade to send out both but only tell the system that we are sending UAT. Now it is flawless.
The FAA has admitted to this problem.

BobTurner
06-03-2015, 06:11 PM
I have a Trig 22 hooked up to a cheap Garmin 72H and it works great... ADSB out... Cheap too...:)

The selection guide only deals with 2020 compliant solutions....

BobTurner
06-03-2015, 06:24 PM
Ron,
I believe what you are saying is correct.
I have the Garmin G3x setup and i am sending out both. There were times that the FAA would drop me. Garmin has done a software upgrade to send out both but only tell the system that we are sending UAT. Now it is flawless.
The FAA has admitted to this problem.

I think you and Ron are talking about different things. You do not tell the FAA you are transmitting on 1090 or 978, you just do it. What you do tell them, in the ADSB-out signal, is if you have ADSB-in on 978, 1090, or both. And yes, I have heard that saying both has caused some issues; saying just 978 fixes it.

Ron, why would you pay for two "out" solutions? I do not the answer to your question, however, the system is supposed to already integrate ADSB targets and radar targets into one, so I would hope it would merge multiple ADSB signals, too.

MarkW
06-04-2015, 06:20 AM
Looks like you are correct Bob.
This whole ADS-B thing is a little fussy to me still. I am just glad I have it, it works and I am compliant for 2020.

Here is the explanation from Garmin.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=119844

BobTurner
06-07-2015, 08:33 PM
If you were to install (or already have) a Mode S/ES transponder with 1090 out AND a UAT unit with 978 out, will there be some sort of conflict at the ATC end, or, with the receiver in the airplane?

Seems like I heard something that the FAA was not happy with that setup.

R.

I found the answer, this is addressed in AC20-165.

In short, an S-ES AND a UAT is not recommended but is acceptable, as long as:
there are single data entry points for squawk code, ident, AND
the UAT must be broadcasting your 24 bit code (mode S id). The UAT may not have the anonymous feature enabled, ATC would see that as two airplanes.

Two S-ES or two UAT's may NOT be operated at the same time.

Which brings up another question: the AC says ADSB-out must have an automatic air/ground determination method. All the S-Es transponders that I have seen discuss this (squat switch, pressure switch to determine some minimum IAS, air data computer input for minimum IAS...). But I have seen no discussion about air/ground switching for any UAT. Anyone know about this?

rwhittier
06-08-2015, 03:42 PM
Which brings up another question: the AC says ADSB-out must have an automatic air/ground determination method. All the S-Es transponders that I have seen discuss this (squat switch, pressure switch to determine some minimum IAS, air data computer input for minimum IAS...). But I have seen no discussion about air/ground switching for any UAT. Anyone know about this?

The NavWorx ADS600B UAT installed in my not yet flying RV7A (the ADS-B system is installed and working) makes reference to a pin reserved for a future squat switch in the installation instructions. It uses minimum speed for air/ground determination. That must be coming from its own on board GPS since it has no other means to know speed.

BobTurner
06-08-2015, 04:09 PM
The NavWorx ADS600B UAT installed in my not yet flying RV7A (the ADS-B system is installed and working) makes reference to a pin reserved for a future squat switch in the installation instructions. It uses minimum speed for air/determination. That must be coming from its own on board GPS since it has no other means to know speed.

Interesting. The AC, which is not regulatory but rather 'demonstrates one acceptable means of compliance', suggests that using only gps (ground) speed 'has been demonstrated to be not satisfactory' as too many false change-overs occur (presumably slow aircraft, either climbing or on final approach, and into a headwind, can switch to ground while airborn due to a low ground speed). But they seem happy with using IAS, even though a strong headwind while taxiing could cause a false change to airborn mode.(?)