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douglassmt
05-28-2015, 07:15 PM
I suspect as ADS-B becomes more widespread (the traffic portion specifically) these types of incidents (or not incidents) will become more commonly reported. Yesterday I was descending into Prineville, OR from the east about 20-30 miles out. Suddenly I noticed a target directly in my flight path about 5 miles out, opposite direction, 1000 feet below me and climbing - and fast. I was in a cruise descent so I was smoking too. Somewhat unusual for where I live, this target had it's N number displayed indicating that he has ADS-B out. I stopped my descent, diverted left, and he almost simultaneously diverted to his left but kept climbing. It was almost like we could see each other :) After he passed on my right a few miles away I got a glimpse of him and noted the N number from the target on the screen. After landing I checked the N number and it was an Agusta helicopter, I'm guessing a Life Flight unit based on the N number.

The lesson (and this isn't the first) is that this was as close a potential mid air as I have had but that it was easily and safely avoided because both of us had ADS-B. This is NOT busy airspace but it could easily have happened nevertheless. Put me down as a fan of ADS-B.

jchang10
05-28-2015, 07:52 PM
Affirm that. A couple weeks back, it was nice having traffic flying into the Salinas AOPA flyin. I had to hold for 20 mins to get in. The next day, this was the scene departing. Pictures below.

I actually had a traffic alert over Santa Cruz. Someone was doing 360's over town at my same altitude. It's nice having extra digital eyeballs looking out for you!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bulukgfHKBw/VVi5oxfq1xI/AAAAAAAAQc8/JPlC1yY_eik/w1010-h267-no/IMG_20150516_143050251-PANO.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ie5rAasL2pA/VWHoyjAVnYI/AAAAAAAAQa0/ecT6RaXDIbY/w912-h535-no/screenshot-12.2.0.2950-20150516-145459-994.png

Arlen
05-30-2015, 06:26 AM
There is no doubt that adding ADS-B makes pilots much more aware of some traffic in the area.

BUT, it is important to note that actual mid-airs are quite uncommon. I will quote a friend, M. Ciholas, from another online forum, as he notes some real mid-air data and circumstances:
------------------------------------------------------------------

"When you look closely, you find midairs are a very low risk.

In 2011 (latest year there is a published Nall report), there were 9 mid airs, 6 fatal, out of 1428 accidents, 258 fatal. So mid airs are 0.63% of all accidents, and 2.33% of all fatal accidents.

But that doesn't quite tell the REAL story. Three of the mid airs were planes doing formation flights. One was two crop dusters working the same area. A traffic system doesn't help with intentional close proximity situations like these.

Of the remaining 5 mid airs, 3 of them were in Alaska where flying low amongst terrain is normal. It isn't clear to me that Alaska represents the same risk for mid airs as CONUS.

Thus, there were two "normal" mid air accidents in 2011: a Lancair IV-P hit a YAK-55 which was practicing aerobatics in a designated aerobatic box, and a Bonanza V35 and Piper Seminole collided, the Seminole having just done a practice emergency descent procedure down to the Bonanza altitude. Even in these two cases, it wasn't just two "normal" airplanes colliding, there always seems to be some extenuating circumstance. In both cases, it was one airplane doing an abnormal flight path (aerobatics, emergency descent) that might fool a traffic system anyway.

The take away is that "normal" mid airs between two airplanes just flying along are rare, VERY rare. While I don't disagree with the desire to have traffic systems, one should realize that on the scale of what will kill you, there are many other things that are higher risk. If someone did a cost effective analysis of what makes you safer, a few hours of advanced instruction every year is probably far more effective at improving your safety than a traffic system, dollar for dollar.

The real value for ADS-B out in the boonies is better ATC services and search and rescue tracks. It is not by accident that the two places ADS-B was tested first were Alaska and western Colorado, places with poor ATC coverage and where search and rescue is difficult."

gasman
05-30-2015, 12:35 PM
You can also better your odds by flying with your landing light on.

1001001
05-30-2015, 12:44 PM
I was doing practice instrument approaches today, and it was interesting to see the plane they had stacked above me in a hold depicted on my Garmin Pilot ADS-B traffic display. 600 feet above me, I couldn't see him from under the hood, but there he was on my screen. My instructor did have a visual on him but the ADS-B called him out well before we had him visually. Of course we were expecting to see him there since we knew that ATC put him up there, but the ADS-B tech is pretty sweet in that regard.

az_gila
05-30-2015, 12:57 PM
There is no doubt that adding ADS-B makes pilots much more aware of some traffic in the area.

BUT, it is important to note that actual mid-airs are quite uncommon. I will quote a friend, M. Ciholas, from another online forum, as he notes some real mid-air data and circumstances:
------------------------------------------------------------------

"When you look closely, you find midairs are a very low risk.

In 2011 (latest year there is a published Nall report), there were 9 mid airs, 6 fatal, out of 1428 accidents, 258 fatal. So mid airs are 0.63% of all accidents, and 2.33% of all fatal accidents.

But that doesn't quite tell the REAL story. Three of the mid airs were planes doing formation flights. One was two crop dusters working the same area. A traffic system doesn't help with intentional close proximity situations like these.

Of the remaining 5 mid airs, 3 of them were in Alaska where flying low amongst terrain is normal. It isn't clear to me that Alaska represents the same risk for mid airs as CONUS.

Thus, there were two "normal" mid air accidents in 2011: a Lancair IV-P hit a YAK-55 which was practicing aerobatics in a designated aerobatic box, and a Bonanza V35 and Piper Seminole collided, the Seminole having just done a practice emergency descent procedure down to the Bonanza altitude. Even in these two cases, it wasn't just two "normal" airplanes colliding, there always seems to be some extenuating circumstance. In both cases, it was one airplane doing an abnormal flight path (aerobatics, emergency descent) that might fool a traffic system anyway.

The take away is that "normal" mid airs between two airplanes just flying along are rare, VERY rare. While I don't disagree with the desire to have traffic systems, one should realize that on the scale of what will kill you, there are many other things that are higher risk. If someone did a cost effective analysis of what makes you safer, a few hours of advanced instruction every year is probably far more effective at improving your safety than a traffic system, dollar for dollar.

The real value for ADS-B out in the boonies is better ATC services and search and rescue tracks. It is not by accident that the two places ADS-B was tested first were Alaska and western Colorado, places with poor ATC coverage and where search and rescue is difficult."

An earlier report on mid-airs from NTSB data -

http://www.132dwing.ang.af.mil/shared/media/document/afd-090901-082.pdf

I think #5 is the big take-away...

(5) The vast majority of midair's occurred at uncontrolled airports below 3,000 feet.

I've witnessed one from the ground fitting that description...:(

flyingriki
05-30-2015, 11:39 PM
Yesterday I was descending into Prineville, OR from the east about 20-30 miles out. Suddenly I noticed a target directly in my flight path about 5 miles out, opposite direction, 1000 feet below me and climbing - and fast. I was in a cruise descent so I was smoking too. Somewhat unusual for where I live, this target had it's N number displayed indicating that he has ADS-B out. I stopped my descent, diverted left, and he almost simultaneously diverted to his left but kept climbing. It was almost like we could see each other :) After he passed on my right a few miles away I got a glimpse of him and noted the N number from the target on the screen.

I get the same information from flight following every day.....:rolleyes:

wizard
05-31-2015, 09:44 AM
I love my ADSB traffic display. It is a great tool to aid me in my collision avoidance efforts. That being said, it is not foolproof. I was recently on my way home from Pocatello with flight following provided by Salt Lake Center. Center called out "traffic, 12 o'clock, 4 miles, opposite direction", 1,000 feet higher than my elevation. ADSB traffic showed nothing on my screen. I saw the traffic about 10 seconds before it passed directly overhead. 15 seconds later, I saw another plane 1,000 feet below me, same direction as the previous traffic, but much slower. This one wasn't called out by Center and also wasn't on my traffic display. First of all, it was weird that all three of us converged in the middle of the genreally sparsely populated southern Idaho airspace. Secondly, I was reminded of the responsibility that we have to keep our eyes open, even with flight following and ADSB traffic display.

flyingriki
05-31-2015, 10:51 AM
Until everyone has all the equipment the traffic picture is incomplete and can be a source of false security....:(

Kyle Boatright
05-31-2015, 10:58 AM
Until everyone has all the equipment the traffic picture is incomplete and can be a source of false security....:(


Unless you are IMC (and even then, really), keep your eyes open. Radios, ADSB devices, and all of the black boxes in the world will not protect you from a Cub, Champ, or fat ultralight that is cruising around without a radio or ADS-B.

GalinHdz
05-31-2015, 12:58 PM
FWIW: I treat my ADS-B as "an another aircrew member looking for traffic." But I never forget that even the best aircrew member, every once in a while, will miss some traffic.

:cool:

jchang10
05-31-2015, 03:30 PM
Unless you are IMC (and even then, really), keep your eyes open. Radios, ADSB devices, and all of the black boxes in the world will not protect you from a Cub, Champ, or fat ultralight that is cruising around without a radio or ADS-B.

And that errant drone these days! ;)

Just search "drone clouds" on youtube!