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View Full Version : ADS-B Transponder -- Do I need an ES?


RONSIM
05-26-2015, 04:23 PM
With Freeflight and Navworx (and soon, others?) offering "compliant" ADS-B transceivers, which provide the 978 (and 1090) "out", do I need an Extended Squitter (ES) transponder or will a ordinary Mode C transponder, such as the G327 work? (a lot of money to be saved if the ES is not necessary, any longer).

I know the newer boxes will "mine" the Mode C transponder code and automatically configure the ADS-B broadcast to match.

Thanks for the help.

Ron

Flying again!
05-26-2015, 04:27 PM
I have the FreeFlight transceiver (Rangr 978) and it works with my Garmin 327 transponder, no ES required.

TJ

dynonsupport
05-26-2015, 04:43 PM
Ron,
You do not need an ES transponder if you are going with a UAT out. However, if this is a new plane, you may find that an ES transponder (which only costs a few hundred more than a non-ES) is cheaper than equipping with a UAT. You can get a full Mode-S with ES for under $2,400.

BobTurner
05-27-2015, 12:59 AM
With Freeflight and Navworx (and soon, others?) offering "compliant" ADS-B transceivers, which provide the 978 (and 1090) "out", do I need an Extended Squitter (ES) transponder or will a ordinary Mode C transponder, such as the G327 work? (a lot of money to be saved if the ES is not necessary, any longer).

I know the newer boxes will "mine" the Mode C transponder code and automatically configure the ADS-B broadcast to match.

Thanks for the help.

Ron

Small correction: Freeflight and Navworx UATs operate on 978 (NOT 1090) MHz...

After 2020, to operate in the affected airspace, you need a UAT-out plus a transponder (mode C or S), OR a mode S-ES transponder; in either case, fed by a "position source" (gps) which meets FAR 91.227.

Raymo
05-27-2015, 08:13 AM
The 1090 capability, to my understanding, is only required if you plan to fly in Class A airspace.

Smilin' Jack
05-27-2015, 11:07 AM
Ray,
I believe that in order to fly international or in various countries such as Europe 1090 is needed. That being said the Bahamas stated at first they were going to require 1090out but it appears now that may be superceeded due to the fact they might lose a lot of revenue on visiting aircraft...
This is all hear say so we will see.

Jack

Raymo
05-27-2015, 11:35 AM
Ray,
I believe that in order to fly international or in various countries such as Europe 1090 is needed. That being said the Bahamas stated at first they were going to require 1090out but it appears now that may be superceeded due to the fact they might lose a lot of revenue on visiting aircraft...
This is all hear say so we will see.

Jack

Good point, Jack. I wasn't thinking about other country requirements.

az_gila
05-27-2015, 11:59 AM
Any hints on future Canadian requirements for visiting planes?

Smilin' Jack
05-27-2015, 12:03 PM
Canada is slated to be 1090 out.
Jack

RONSIM
05-27-2015, 12:05 PM
to the "all-in-one" box, such as Freeflight or Navworx - (and, again, hopefully others).

1. No ES TXP needed
2. No other "position source" (for experimentals and LSAs) such as an expensive 430/650.
3. The traffic and weather can be displayed on my iFly or my iPad, or other inexpensive screens.

These advantages look like real money savers for folks who don't want/need avionics that represent a dollar value that is a large percentage of the value of the aircraft.

bret
05-27-2015, 12:14 PM
SO.....by 2020 we all need a position source" (gps) which meets FAR 91.227 like a 430?

az_gila
05-27-2015, 12:39 PM
to the "all-in-one" box, such as Freeflight or Navworx - (and, again, hopefully others).

1. No ES TXP needed
2. No other "position source" (for experimentals and LSAs) such as an expensive 430/650.
3. The traffic and weather can be displayed on my iFly or my iPad, or other inexpensive screens.

These advantages look like real money savers for folks who don't want/need avionics that represent a dollar value that is a large percentage of the value of the aircraft.

I think the stuff you mention will be the solution for a lot of certified aircraft - most of which will have a value that is a low multiplier of the certified Garmin 430/650 boxes...:)

Installation costs will be minimal.

BobTurner
05-27-2015, 12:55 PM
Lot of confusion here.
1. The comparison between mode SES and UAT is for transmitters, e.g., ADSB-out. Now, many but not all UAT boxes also have a ADSB-in receiver. And, some but not all UAT boxes have a built-in gps. And some of those gps units have been certified by the manufacturer to be compliant with the FAR 91.227 requirements. Some have not.
2. Whatever transmitter you use, it has to be fed with a position source (currently only gps boxes) which meet the requirements spelled out in 91.227. It does not have to be an ifr navigator with a database, and there are boxes available not cheap but a lot less than a 430W.
3. There are no exemptions for EAB aircraft, although one company has chosen, for its own reasons, to make a certain box available only to EAB. The FAA is continuing its decade old policy of requiring an STC for anything installed in normally certified aircraft. But otherwise EAB and certified aircraft are bound by the same rules.
4. Another complication is that despite all the rules the FAA failed to require any communication protocols. So you must make sure the position source you buy can be 'read' and understood by the transmitter. For example, a 430W does not output the correct data unless it has updated software so that 'ADSB+' is a serial output option. Currently a Trig 31 will read this but only software 3.12 or higher! And a TT 22 won't read it at all (Trig says "soon"). UATs with built in compliant gps units of course should not have this problem.

shuttle
05-28-2015, 06:14 AM
Just an FYI but in the UK the CAA has agreed to a trial of uncertified gps as a position source to a Mode S ES transponder for ADS-B Out. (All 1090 - we are not going 978 in Europe).

This allows the connection of a portable aviation gps to the transponder. The Trig and Funke transponders both set the ADS-B SIL (Source Integrity Level) to zero if fed with an NMEA 0183 datafeed.

It is this setup that the trial is seeking to evaluate. The theory being it is better to have people broadcasting their position via ADS-B Out fed by an uncertified gps than not broadcasting their position at all because they will never install a certified gps.

Incidentally you may also find some of the other related activities going on in the UK of interest. See here: http://www.fasvig.org. I am the Programme Coordinator for the Future Airspace Strategy VFR Implementation Group.

Steve