Dynon Skyview ADSB

Looking for some input on upgrading to include ADSB out and in.

I have the following equipment relevant to the question
Dual 10" Skyveiw
GTN 650
Garmin 327

I'd like to display traffic and weather on The Skyveiw. According to Dynon they don't support displaying ADSB traffic or weather from another manufacturer. I really don't want to replace the Garmin 327 with a 330ES as I'd have to also replace the tray and it's pricey. So that leaves me with adding a Dynon (Trigg) transponder behind the panel and the Dynon ADSB-470. Total price is less than replacing the 327 with a 330. I'd either have a hole in the stack or just leave the 327 to fill the spot.

My wife flys with me a lot and really wants to have traffic and weather, it's just a comfort thing as we had it in our 7A. She knows we have 5 more years to comply but doesn't care, she wants it now.

Does anyone have any other suggestions. I really liked the idea of the L-3 as I could use my 327, unfortunately Dynon will not support it.

Thanks
Gary

If you don't want a hole in your stack you may be able to sell the 327 and replace it with a Trig TT31 mode S-ES. I think it is the same height, but does require a couple of inches more depth (about). Compare the cost to the Dynon (Trig clone) transponder, decide what you want to do.
Also, as of this writing, I don't think the TT31 is "officially" paired with the GTN series as a position source, although it is with the 4x0W series and I think they both use the same Garmin ADSB+ format, but what do I know? Same may be true for the Dynon transponder. I have little doubt these things will happen, but as of now they are not official.
It sounds like you have no option other than the Dynon ADSB-in if you want to display data on the Dynon. Of course if it's JUST for the wife, you can get a Skyradar, Dual, etc., and an iPad with WingX and hand it to her.

The news is just starting to come out, but another option is the Freeflight system. It's fully compliant OUT for $1,995:

http://www.equipit2020.com/

Then you get the Dynon IN box for $995, and for under $3,000 you are fully compliant with no new holes in your panel.

The only thing we don't support is someone else's IN receiver. You can use another OUT to wake up the ground stations.

Several Options

Gary,

First my disclosure statement: I work at FreeFlight Systems in Irving. As stated in my signature block, I was building a 7A, but the kit, Reserve Duty, and work took too much away from the family so I sold the kit and am now looking at completed projects.

With the setup you have, there really are lots of options available; it's really a matter of your preferences. FreeFlight of course offers several options that meet your needs, but if you want it displayed on your SkyViews, then right now I believe you have to go with the Dynon IN solution since they do not support other manufacturers. This paired with either the FreeFlight EquipIt2020 solution or the L-3 box sounds like a good solution. I will point out that the FreeFlight EquipIt2020 $1995 offering includes the FDL-978-TXL unit, both the GPS and ADS-B antennas, install kit, and control head. With the GTX-327, you will not need the control head, but it is part of the package being shipped to dealers.

If you are not dead set on displaying ADS-B IN on your SkyView, then another option is to use the GTN650 you have installed. Garmin offers the GDL-88, which gives you ADS-B out and will display ADS-B In on the 650.

Another option is to display ADS-B In on an iPad or other tablet device. If this is an acceptable, then you have even more options. One is to do either the FreeFlight EquipIt2020 system or L-3 unit mentioned above with a Stratus Device. To be honest, I?m not that familiar with the Status device, so I?m not sure how it is powered, and I believe it only works with ForeFlight on the iPad.

If you want a more integrated approach, then there is also the Garmin GDL-84, which is a de-featured GDL-88. It provides ADS-B Out/In with built in WiFi; however, I believe the WiFi only connects to the Garmin iPad app.

The other integrated approach is the other FreeFlight offering under the EquipIt2020 program mentioned earlier. It is an ADS-B Out/In package includes that includes a separate WiFi module. This solution allows you to use a number of iPad and Android apps.

These are the solutions I can think of that might work for you, and I?m sure I?ve missed a few, but I hope this helps in your search.

Mike

TTU_RV7 said:

This paired with either the FreeFlight EquipIt2020 solution or the L-3 box sounds like a good solution. I will point out that the FreeFlight EquipIt2020 $1995 offering includes the FDL-978-TXL unit, both the GPS and ADS-B antennas, install kit, and control head.

Click to expand...

G'day Mike,

A quick question about the FreeFlight solution if I may. The part number is FDL-978-TXL, presumably this refers to the frequency it operates on, that is it is a UAT, not a 1090ES system?

My understanding is the US is the only country using 978 over 1090ES, so are there any plans to expand the range to include 1090?

If you want to use 1090, this is a Mode-S transponder. You can't make an add-on ADS-B OUT on the 1090 frequency, it must be part of your transponder. The nice part there is that a Mode-S transponder costs about the same as a Mode-C today.

ADSB options with Skyview and GTN650

Mike,
Thanks for all the good data points.
Both Freeflight and L-3 look interesting as they can use the Garmin 327. I've done as much research as I can as they are both fairly new solutions.

Getting ADSB "in" to display on the Skyview is a simple choice, it can only be a Dynon solution. I understand why Dynon chooses to be a closed system but the flexibility of the GRT equipment was nice.

One thing I don't like about the Freeflight or L-3 is the need for yet another antenna. you end up with one for the 327, one for the Freeflight or L-3 "out" and another for the Dynon "in". The spacing becomes a challenge, Freeflight, Navworx and L-3 want at least 5-7 feet from the transponder antenna and the "in" antenna needs to be at least 2 feet from both.

If I just replace the 327 with a Trig TT31 it's just one additional antenna for the Dynon "in" and I can deal with the 2 ft plus placement. I was going to go down the Garmin 330ES route but the tray would require major modification to the sub panel behind the instrument panel. The TT31 is about 1.5" shorter.

BTW.. The TT31 is certified with the GNS 430W and 530W for ADSB out. The paperwork has been submitted for certifying the TT31/ GTNxxx series by Peregrine in CO. I spoke with Peregrine yesterday and they expect approval by July. My guess is it may take longer but I'm OK with that.

For now I ordered the Dynon ADSB -470 module and will keep looking at options for the "out" portion. I know I'll only receive weather at this point.

There is so much happening in this space I'm sure other options and solutions will be forthcoming.

Thanks again to everyone who replied

Gary

dynonsupport said:

If you want to use 1090, this is a Mode-S transponder. You can't make an add-on ADS-B OUT on the 1090 frequency, it must be part of your transponder. The nice part there is that a Mode-S transponder costs about the same as a Mode-C today.

Click to expand...

But you still need a certified position source for that transponder. The FreeFlight solution includes that, with the UAT for under $2,000 that is suitable for US pilots. For those outside the US, to get the equivalent using the 1090ES system you'll need a FreeFlight 1201 ($2,900) and a Mode S transponder ($2,200 for the Dynon Cl 2 one) for over $5,000, AIUI.

And you still can't use the certified GPS that's driving your ADSB as part of your navigation solution as it doesn't have a database or way of showing you your position. It wouldn't be so bad if I could plan /G with the FF1201 and SkyView, but to get that capability, it is another $3-5000 for a -400 series Garmin, because you can't use a C129 GPS for ADSB out.

You could also add the NavWorx EXP box for out/in and use the Dynon receiver for in as well. This would cost about $2,000 total. You could use the NavWorx in via wifi if you want to, but it's probably the cheapest out solution for you.

If it were me, I would pull the 327 and sell it (while you can, you should be able to get about $900-1,000 for it), and install the remote Dynon/trig unit to control via the Skyview. That would cost a net of $1,200-1,300 and you would just have to put something over the hole where the 327 came out. The wiring for the Dynon unit is extremely simple, and you probably already have the wires in the 327 harness that you will need from the Dynon and the GTN-650, as well as power and ground.

GTN650 Dynon/ Trig

Thanks for all the great input. I have decided to go with the. Dynon/Trig, ADSB out solution

I'll need to run a new wire from the GTN650 to the Trig for the GPS signal. Can someone confirm that any of the RS-232 TX outputs on the P1001 connector are OK to use.

Does the GTN series use the high density Sub D pins?

Thanks
Gary

I assume any output should work, but I don't know for sure. They are high density pins.

Check Message

Gary,

PM Sent. I think you need to check the message protocols as well.

Mike

Any one of the serial output pins will work. The format is software configurable in the GTN.

You should also check out the King KT74 s/es transponder. It is approved for use with the 430/530/650. I am using this and it works great. It has a much nicer looking interface and is close to the 327 depth and same height as the 327.

Will Dynon be coming out (by end of 2015) with a TSO compliant (Not saying certified) GPS to allow their Mode S transponder do ADS-B OUT?

b432291 said:

Will Dynon be coming out (by end of 2015) with a TSO compliant (Not saying certified) GPS to allow their Mode S transponder do ADS-B OUT?

Click to expand...

The gps position source used for ADSB-out does not need to meet any TSO requirements. It has to meet 91.227.

Bill.Peyton said:

You should also check out the King KT74 s/es transponder. It is approved for use with the 430/530/650. I am using this and it works great. It has a much nicer looking interface and is close to the 327 depth and same height as the 327.

Click to expand...

Did you have to install a pressure switch in the pitot line to do the air-ground switching? Any trouble getting the installation manual from King?

OK, so let me rephrase. I have a skyview and the skyview Mode-S transponder. I can only do ADS-B out today if I hook a 91.227 compliant GPS to the transponder. If the skyview already has a GPS, why do I need to buy another GPS (which would bring the GPS count in the plane to four total...)?
Will dynon be supplying a 91.227 GPS for the skyview system anytime soon???

b432291 said:

OK, so let me rephrase. I have a skyview and the skyview Mode-S transponder. I can only do ADS-B out today if I hook a 91.227 compliant GPS to the transponder. If the skyview already has a GPS, why do I need to buy another GPS (which would bring the GPS count in the plane to four total...)?
Will dynon be supplying a 91.227 GPS for the skyview system anytime soon???

Click to expand...

As I understand it, you don't need a 91.227 compliant GPS until 2020.

b432291 said:

OK, so let me rephrase. I have a skyview and the skyview Mode-S transponder. I can only do ADS-B out today if I hook a 91.227 compliant GPS to the transponder.

Click to expand...

In 2020 you have to use a 91.227 compliant position source, until then you can use the SkyView GPS to get ADS-B IN data to whatever ADS-B receiver you may currently have.

b432291 said:

If the skyview already has a GPS, why do I need to buy another GPS (which would bring the GPS count in the plane to four total...)?

Click to expand...

Because, I assume, none of them are 91.227 compliant.

b432291 said:

Will dynon be supplying a 91.227 GPS for the skyview system anytime soon???

Click to expand...

Not that they have announced.

I believe the freeflight solution above IS 91.227 compliant. I thought (Dynon support can correct me) the only thing lacking with skyview was a 91.227 position source. If they had that then a skyview with their (trig) transponder and the ads-b in module would give you ads-b in and out.
Could Dynon support please clarify?

The Dynon Transponder is fully TSO'd as an ADS-B OUT device and thus is 91.227 compliant.

You also need a 91.227 compliant position source attached to fly in airspaces defined in 91.225 after 2020. The Dynon GPS is not 91.227 compliant, but the transponder is.

Some devices like the freeflight are both GPS position sources and ADS-B out devices all in one, and both elements are 91.227 compliant.

The FAA is in the middle of draft guidance on what an experimental really needs for a position source, and what "compliant" means, so it's an interesting time for all of this.

Dynonsupport,

I apologize for being redundant, but if I want ADS-B out can I:

A) Using the Skyview/Trig combination, I would need to buy/install a Garmin 91.227 compliant GPS which would wire to the Trig?

B) Use the current GPS position source that the skyview has (until 2020), is ATC accepting this today?

C) Will Dynon be offering (I'm not asking WHEN, just IF) a replacement GPS position source for the Skyview system that is 91.227 compliant?

I hate to force a answer, but Dynon Customers need to know Dynon's long-term intentions.

Ted

Ted,

A) You can buy a 91.227 compliant GPS today and wire it to the SkyView transponder and be fully 2020 legal. This can be an IFR navigator (Garmin or Avidyne, Bendix-King likely in the near future).

You can also buy a stand-alone GPS from Freeflight or Trig if you aren't looking for IFR GPS navigators.

B) Remember, you only need a 91.227 GPS to fly after 2020, and then only in 91.225 airspace. Dynon's non-compliant GPS works fine today, and wakes up the ground stations to give you traffic. No, ATC doesn't see your ADS-B position with this solution, but until 2020 that is not an issue. In the end, the issue isn't if ATC can see your ADS-B, it's if your plane is legal against FAR 91.227 and 91.225.

C) The solutions for ADS-B OUT are rapidly changing, as is the guidance from the FAA about what is needed in an experimental. 2020 is still 1,700 days away. In just the last 6 months, prices have fallen about $1,000. All Dynon can say right now is that we will support multiple solutions for ADS-B out, and we will push hard to solve the issue at a Dynon price. No point in promising that we will do "something" if we can't talk about when and what.

Our recommendation remains that unless you otherwise have an IFR navigator in your plane, you should wait to equip with a 91.225/91.227 legal solution. Not having this causes no operational restrictions for the next 4.5 years, and gives you time to investigate the solutions that come to market in that time.

Everything is working as expected

In the end I ended up replacing the GTX327 with a Dynon (Trig) transponder and installing the Dynon ADSB "in" box. The 327 was sold to a friend with an old Cessna 150. The installation took about 20 hours but many hours were spent just getting to know the 10. I didn't build this one so removing some of the instrument panel, seats, side walls, et took some time. The Trig was mounted on the pilot side on the sub panel. I utilized the same RG400 cable, just needed to cut off the old BNC and install the TNC. The Dynon ADSB "in" box was installed under the co pilot seat. The new antenna for "in" was very close to the box. Running the wires to the dual Skyview was not a big deal, the instructions were pretty straightforward. I have to say the configuration on the Dynon is very simple and well done. The hardest part (read that as frustrating) was removing the entire radio stack to get to the back of the GTN. I needed to add a wire to pick up the serial data.

I know if I waited there would be many other solutions but my wife likes to fly with me and she insists on traffic and weather. Heck, I even have it in my Just Highlander.

Thanks for all the suggestions

Gary