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RV-4 LSA

Thinking outside the box...

Could a builder build an RV-4 as an experimental Light Sport Airplane (LSA)? Since the empty weight of the RV-4 is approximately 900 pounds, is it possible to keep the gross weight at/below the LSA max weight of 1320 pounds using a 100hp engine & fixed pitch prop?

Could the 100hp/fp prop combo limit the speed to 138 mph per the LSA reg?

Any thoughts?
 
RV4 LSA

Stall speed below 45 knots CAS?????

If you could build one then in theory there is no reason you could't derate an o235.

Just not sure how well it would fly...I mean you are taking an airplane that performs well at 20mph and giving it 138mph max...

Dunno?

Frank
 
Plausible? May be? Kind a?

Probably not, but for fun........................

First weight:

You might have a hard time with the 900 lbs, but day vfr, wood prop, you might get there, but it would be a challenge. You can always limit the gross at sacrifice of fuel and payload. Of course with a light engine and prop you will have an aft CG issue with a passenger for sure. So plan on an extended engine mount or moving the wing back a few inches. Both not real practical.


Second performance:

Speed? Interesting? A 150 hp RV-4 is 201 mph. Now 100 HP would be

201 = X * (150 / 100 ) ^ 0.333 ; X = 175 mph (too fast)

You have 66.6 % if the power, but that does NOT lower your speed 33.3 %.
Speed and HP are approx on a cubed root.


Working backwards if you need 138 mph you would have:

201 = 138 * (150/X)^0.333 ; X = 48.5 HP!

Keep in mind a RV-9A with a 118 hp goes 173 mph so this above rough calc is not too far off.

The bad news is your climb rate with 49 hp, will be so low, say 300-400 fpm. Low drag is great for top speed but it is HP that gets you climb rate.


I would say the RV-4 would NOT make a good LSA because the design was made for +200 mph, +2000 fpm climb and 1500 lbs gross with 150-180 hp. However as a testament to how versatile of a design it is, it almost makes it as a LSA. Think of all the little cheap engines you could use in the 50 HP range. Hummmmmm Briggs and Stratton. :rolleyes:


Does anyone remember the DA-11, 125 mph cruise on 18 HP Briggs & Sratton?

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/da11.html
( 4 cycle engine, tricycle gear configuration with a steerable nose wheel. It is equipped with a 12V battery, starter, alternator, regulator, ammeter, key start, electric fuel pump, engine driven fuel pump....empty weight 175 lbs! gross 375 lbs!. Now you know why Van says keep it light. )


It would be a fun experiment to try to make a RV-4 a LSA. I suppose you could use a 100 hp engine and add drag, such as no wheel or gear fairings. This would give you better climb and help keep the speed below the magic 138 mph. You would still need to do more. The W&B issue would have to be addressed. One approach is a slightly longer engine mount and cowl. Also keep the tail of the plane (anything behind 1/3 wing chord) as light as possible, such as no paint and primer on back of the plane. Forget tail lights.

I can tell you a lot of ultralights go a little too fast and are a little too heavy, from what my ultralight acquaintances tell me. The FAA to their credit does not hide in the bushes, trying catching fast heavy ultralights. How could they, and they have better fish to fry.

Frankly I bet some of the "official" LSA's push the limits? Look, performance limits are hard to regulate. I guess there is an official LSA approval process? Don't they need some kind of official engine? A Rotax?

However the LSA is a little more official. I suppose there are going to be two types or classes of LSA's. One is the factory or OEM LSA's and the other the experimental LSA's. I suppose the oversight of experimental LSA's will be similar to any experimental. Can you the builder just declare a homebuilt a LSA? Do you need the FAA to bless and sanction your kit plane as a LSA? If that is the case, FAA blessing, than the whole topic of a RV being a LSA is academic.

In your hypothetical RV-4 LSA, you could limit the throttle to 2/3rds or over pitch the prop to keep the speed down. It is an interesting question. Would the FAA say OK to that? I will say the RV-4 as a LSA is slightly plausible but not practical.

If the FAA would let you keep the speed down with a throttle limit, you could turn many RV's into single seat LSA's! I doubt that will work and don't know the LSA regs. I am not sure this class of plane/pilot will be a big success but lets hope so.
 
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Remember that the 45kt. stall speed limit is "clean". Flaps aren't considered in this case. You'll have a difficult time convincing a DAR that your RV-4 stalls below 45kts with flaps up.
 
DA-11 sighting

Does anyone remember the DA-11, 125 mph cruise on 18 HP Briggs & Sratton?

Remember it!?!

I saw it...about 10+ years ago at Troy, Alabama! That was the starting point for a race from Troy into Sun'n Fun, and I was there the day before the race to see some of the arrivals. Quite an impression to hear the sound and see the speed of such an unusual machine. What ever happened to the DA-11? Is she still being flown?
Don
 
I know but if you squint

Mel said:
Remember that the 45kt. stall speed limit is "clean". Flaps aren't considered in this case. You'll have a difficult time convincing a DAR that your RV-4 stalls below 45kts with flaps up.
Mel good point but I do think a RV-4 has a stall speed below 45 kts! The flap down verses up is only 2-3 mph difference. The listed stall for the RV-4 is 48 mph solo (1160lbs) and 54 mph at gross (1500 lbs).

Interpolation to 1320 lbs, the flap down stall would be about 50.7 mph or 44.1 kts. The flaps do make a 3 mph difference, but you could use vortex generators to get you under the 45 kts.

I know, I know, I know, this is a lame stretch, but this is all in fun. You are right Mel, it would be a push to convince a DAR of this. However it's amazing how low the stall speed of RV's are. That is why I choose the RV, the low stall speed and safety that brings.
 
Jaibru 3300?

Surface Warrior said:
Thinking outside the box...

Could a builder build an RV-4 as an experimental Light Sport Airplane (LSA)? Since the empty weight of the RV-4 is approximately 900 pounds, is it possible to keep the gross weight at/below the LSA max weight of 1320 pounds using a 100hp engine & fixed pitch prop?
Sounds like a good mission for a Jabiru 3300 (120Hp) or even the 2200 (80Hp) - light, direct drive, small, simple.

Cool concept! Would rather have one of those as a LSA than a RV-12 :)

Could you adjust the prop so that you got plenty of climb but topped out at 120kt? The new Sensenich composite ground-adjust might work.
 
The best answer to this question is... Why? There are going to be plenty of great LSA's out there soon enough. I think the better question is... Can an LSA be designed similar to a tandem RV. The answer to that is a wonderful YES! I've seen an LSA called "The Patriot", which is basically an RV-8A with a Jabiru. It would make an excellent LSA. Very fun, very capable. My dream is to build an aircraft of my own design. I dont really care about what category it falls in, but a plane like this "Patriot" is high on my list.

-Bruce
 
RV-3 LSA?

Actually, looking at the Van's line-up, a RV-3B LSA would be an interesting concept. You have to put a LOT of prop or not a lot of engine to stay within 120kt, but weight and stall speed should be Ok.

I know that the RV-3B has the option of QB wings, but no matched-hole fuse like the RV-8, right?

An aerobatic LSA? Whee! Sign me up! :)
 
LSA you say?

The RV3 would be great! I am not in need of LSA capabilities (yet) but the thought intrigues me. I really feel that LSA is the first shot in the arm to GA in 30 years. I flew an RV3 several years ago with an 0-235 and it cruised easily at 160 mph and stalled close to 45 weighing in at roughly 720 lbs. What a machine! However, as shown earlier it's too clean and fast to stay within the "intent" of LSA.
The RV12 doesn't appeal to me nor do alot of the imported designs. I keep coming back to the RV4. While staring at my fuselage upside down in the Jig back in 94', a buddy commented, what a cool high wing it would be! No struts, Wittman landing gear, tandem seats, like a 2 seat cleaner BD-4.
Like Bruce, I would love to design my own experimental. A high-wing "Bush" RV4 with an 0-235 and Alaska tundra tires might qualify...hmmmm :)

RR
 
smokyray said:
A high-wing "Bush" RV4 with an 0-235 and Alaska tundra tires might qualify...hmmmm :)
RR

hmmm, I could see such a beast... And I think I know Smoky well enough that I can see him skimming over water just to land on sandbars in Idaho :eek:

Just make sure you post the mpeg :rolleyes:
 
RV-3SP

I am currently building (slowly) an RV-3 that I plan to power with a 6-Cyl Jabiru 3300. I previously owned an
O-200 powered -3, and as I recall it ran about 150 MPH indicated at full throttle (about 2600RPM with a cruise prop) at SL. It was a good performer, with an adequate climb rate, even when flying out of Albuquerque on a hot day.

As described in the Sonex factory web site, their aircraft can meet the specific Sport Pilot performance restrictions primarily because the Jabiru 3300 has a stipulated "Max Continuous Power" value of 2750RPM (rather than at the 3300RPM/ 120HP Redline). I believe that the RV-3 could also stay under the 120Kt / 138 MPH Sport limit at that power setting. The ground-adjustable Sensenich prop would seem to be a good method of fine tuning the upper speed limit. One possible fly-in-the-ointment however, is that the USJabiru site now calls out 2850RPM as the Max Continuous for the new 3300's.

I am still considering the 4-Cyl Jab 2200, but with an engine installed-weight differential of 100+ pounds as compared to the O-320, the nose would of necessity be REALLY long and require a fair amount of enlargement of the vertical fin area. But I'll bet it would be a fine little airplane, even if it did look like a Kinner-Bird.


Hawkeye Hughes
RV-3 and Skyote
 
Ultralight RV-4??

Rumour has it that here in Australia the upper weight limit for 'ultralights' may be extended to 750kg and aerobatics will be permitted. A shoe-in for an RV-4, and many others. My 180/FP Rv-4 stalls about 43kts with flaps/idle, and about 45 clean, last time I checked. How can the FAA/CASA police LSA regs, really, and as you say, they have higher priorities, according to Bush/Rumsfield/Wolfowitz (sp?). and of course PMs Blair and Howard.
We already have 'user pays' cost recovery here, thank god I'm free to buy lots of cheap **** from China!
 
REHughes said:
I am currently building (slowly) an RV-3 that I plan to power with a 6-Cyl Jabiru 3300. ....
As described in the Sonex factory web site, their aircraft can meet the specific Sport Pilot performance restrictions primarily because the Jabiru 3300 has a stipulated "Max Continuous Power" value of 2750RPM (rather than at the 3300RPM/ 120HP Redline). I believe that the RV-3 could also stay under the 120Kt / 138 MPH Sport limit at that power setting. The ground-adjustable Sensenich prop would seem to be a good method of fine tuning the upper speed limit. One possible fly-in-the-ointment however, is that the USJabiru site now calls out 2850RPM as the Max Continuous for the new 3300's.

I am still considering the 4-Cyl Jab 2200, but with an engine installed-weight differential of 100+ pounds as compared to the O-320, the nose would of necessity be REALLY long and require a fair amount of enlargement of the vertical fin area.
Cool! I think the Jabiru 3300 / RV-3B would be a good combo, particularly with the Sensenich prop. My guess is that you will be Ok with 2850 RPM and the ground-adjust prop. Just make sure that the prop pitch doesn't "accidentally" change to allow for more speed. ;)

I agree that the J2200 isn't enough engine and is too light.

Doug
 
Jab-RV-3-SP

REHughes said:
[snipped] I believe that the RV-3 could also stay under the 120Kt / 138 MPH Sport limit at that power setting [100hp].

[more snipped]

I am still considering the 4-Cyl Jab 2200, but with an engine installed-weight differential of 100+ pounds as compared to the O-320, the nose would of necessity be REALLY long and require a fair amount of enlargement of the vertical fin area.

Hawkeye Hughes
RV-3 and Skyote

#1 - I concur. My O-320 powered RV-3 did 120kts at 50% power. The Jab 3300 should work perfectly.

#2 - The RV-3 was designed for the O-235. The 320 is a crazy adaptation of power hungry RV builder/flyers... :rolleyes: <- ME

My RV-3 with me in it (150lbs wet) and full gas (header) was well beyond the forward CG limit and the plane flew accordingly, +5kts "stall" speed, tail just quit.

I found a source that puts the installed weight of an O-235 at 207lbs. That's a far cry from 134lbs dry of a Jabiru 2200. So Maybe it's the right ball park, have to do the math and see if the 50lbs (apples to apples) weight difference makes. I think the 3300 is probably still a better choice if not for weight than any other reason.

-Bruce
 
Jabiru 3300 for power and ground adjustable fixed pitch prop to provide speeds not over 120 kts.

Pulled rivets instead of flush rivets to add drag, which would assist with not busting max speed requirement of LSA.

No gear leg or wheel fairings to further assist with speed reductions.

Possible to meet stall speed requirement of 45 kts clean? Maybe.

RV-4 with the above modifications might meet LSA, and allow a passenger to enjoy the "ride" as well.

It's sounding "doable".

Charlie
 
Surface Warrior said:
Pulled rivets instead of flush rivets to add drag, which would assist with not busting max speed requirement of LSA.


It's sounding "doable".

Charlie

What are you guys
up to? ;)
 
RV4 wannabe?

Pierre...hohohohoho...sach le bleu...!!!! RV6A driver trolling the RV4 site? Could you possibly be considering selling your Grumman look-alike and coming over from the dark side to the the real RV's...? :)

It's your destiny....


Rob Ray

"Speed is Life"
Robin Olds
 
Listen Smoke....

Hey Smoke,
I have around 14,000 tailwheel hours from Pitts, Cassutt, T-6 (I owned one), J3, Supercub and several thousand hours in 1340 Pratt powered Air Tractors and several thousand in PT-6 powered 401 and 502 Air Tractors but I still like to see over the nose in my rocket-ship 6A. I'm tired of dancing on rudder pedals........ :D I do that daily over cotton and peanuts :eek:

Furthermore, my buddy, Barefoot Billy, says the 6A he used to own flies better than the RV8 he now owns........go figure.

ps. I wish you'd come and visit me at 2J3,
Regards,
Pierre
 
Fast company...

Hey Pierre,
No worries, I am over here in MGM flying a pretty cool trike myself, the F16. I too grew up around sprayers, about 5000 TW myself, not nearly as many as you, but plenty of nights over Iraq dodging big bullets supporting the troops. I have to agree, it is nice seeing over the nose, but you gotta love dancing once in awhile...

I'd love to come over for a visit...

Rob Ray
 
Wife

Wife is the reason! I just hooked her last December :D and she loves sitting by my side or I'd have a 4 in a heartbeat! Fact is, I haven't flown or ridden (rided?) in one yet. Any offers? I've flown 6,7,8,9 but no 4.
Regards,




ps. Smoke, check your PM's.
 
Pitts S1 LSA?

About a month ago I had the same conversation but in place of an RV I was thinking Pitts with flat wings, and O-200, climb prop, open cockpit, and one foot longer wings.

What about George, do you think that will work?
 
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