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VFR pilots taking off into IMC??

Brian130

Well Known Member
It seems that in the last few weeks, I have read of more than a handful of fatal crashes that were preliminarily believed to be caused by a VFR pilot taking off into IMC. The most recent one I've seen is here: http://www.indystar.com/articles/1/233390-3381-093.html.

I would like to maybe raise awareness and start a (NON-FLAME - we've all done things that were incredibly stupid in hindsight) discussion on how common this actually is, how many people do it and don't get hurt, how to stop it, etc. We will always have gyros tumble, engines fail, alternators go out, and those are just risks we take. But it seems like accidents with a non-instrument rated pilot taking off into 600 ft ceilings are unnecessary - especially when your passenger is killed alongside you.
 
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Be Careful, Folks

Ok, this is probably going to raise a few eyebrows...but here goes:

Yes, I agree completely that VFR pilots should keep their butts on the ground when IMC conditions prevail, but if your airplane has gyros there is no excuse for losing it in the clouds, instrument rated or not.

Even if you're a VFR-only pilot, go up with a safety pilot and put on your foggles/whatever. Fly around, have your safety pilot put the aircraft in unusual attitudes and try to recover.

You should try to avoid it as much as possible...but if you fly often enough you're going to eventually get into some clouds or thick stuff (here in Atlanta the summer haze can cut visibility to less than a mile easily). Be prepared for it and when you do...get on the instruments.

An instrument rating should teach people procedures, not how to keep the right side of the airplane up (they should already know that). BTW: I worry sometimes about some IFR pilots who always depend on autopilots. I've met a few that have to make me wonder if they could keep ahead of the airplane if Otto were to go belly up. There have been plenty of IFR pilots who have flown VFR into IMC and bought the farm, so having an instrument rating doesn't guarantee your health.

Be careful out there folks!
 
Eyebrows Raised here

I flew to work in LA for 15 or so years MANY times IFR down to minimums and NEVER used an autopilot but I don't believe what you say has anything to do with the real world of IMC operations, spacial disorientation, doubt of instrument function, etc. When it hits the fan and you lose certainty of the situation regardless of ratings or experience the mind struggles to regain control and you will grasp onto any piece of data to maintain situation awareness and prevent absolute crippling terror from taking over. Keeping the dirty side down is just one piece of the puzzle and if you lose it in the other areas you will eventually probably lose that piece too. I do not have an autopilot in the RV-6A but after the IFR trip to California from Arkansas and back last week this old candy ___ is going to get one.
 
Special VFR Story - happy ending

I know this guy who decided to ask for his very first Special VFR clearance years ago. He was VFR rated only and there was a large hole over the airport with incoming airplanes reporting tops at only 1200 ft and skyclear only 3-4 miles south in the direction I , whoops, he was planning to go. Well he got the clearance, took off and couldn't make the hole to stay clear of clouds. He tried to turn back to it got in the soup and all of a sudden his artificial horizon, which worked fine, meant absolutely nothing to him. It's amazing how the untrained under stress can look at that instrument and get a total brain freeze. At one point there was a break in the clouds that he was in and out his left window he could see his left wing tip pointing straight down at the ground. There was no feeling of being sideways AT ALL until the visual clue. Training told him that could happen, but it never really registered until that moment. After about 3 seconds of panic, I, I mean he, focused on the turn coordinator and airspeed only, leveled the wings and climbed for about a minute (felt like an hour) out of the soup. He let his heart rate return to near normal and then recognized that he just came within seconds of killing himself. He promised himself he would spend some more time with an instructor and get more comfortable with his instruments. He never went Special VFR again and he lived happily ever after. Jack 9A N489JE flying 1.2 hrs.
 
Unusual attitude recovery...

Every BFR I have been through has always had the routine "close your eyes" the CFI does wild maneuvers, etc. I even had one guy reach over in the midst of my eyes shut time and spin the calibration knob on the directional gyro just to add a bit of confusion.

The last unusual attitude recovery I had was with a business acquaintance who is also an airshow rated aerobatic pilot with a waiver down to the surface. This guy rolls his Pitts just after take off. We flew out of his airport in Spokane last September in his A-36 Bonanza. I sat right seat and he gave me the airplane right after takeoff since I have never been checked out in a high-performance retract single. We headed north a few miles and he asked if I knew what a "whoosh" was. Of course, I had no idea. He took the airplane into a shallow dive to gain some speed then started up into a parabolic arc and zero G. Just as he got to the top, he rolled left to knife edge and said "You've got it". We were VFR at the time and the instinct took over quickly to recover to wings level and pull out slowly since the airplane was headed down after going over the top of the arc knife-edged.

And no, I did not want a ride in his two-seat Pitts. The photos from that day are posted here: http://www.n2prise.org/Antcliff.htm

Jerry K. Thorne
East Ridge, TN
RV-9A N2PZ
 
I was coming home from a business trip in my 172 when the clouds kept creeping lower and lower and started a light rain. I could see the ground OK and was only an hour from home. It was also late in the afternoon. I made the decision to land about a half hour from home and rent a car to go the rest of the way. So far so good! The weather went down hill very quickly and I was having trouble seeing the ground by this time. I couldn't find the beacon at the airport I was trying to land at and was as low as I dared to go. I had no GPS at the time. I got the FBO manager on the radio and told him I was having trouble finding the airport. He reminded me of the VOR frequency and told me what radial to fly on to get back to the airport. I was having trouble doing this simple task by now because of fear. I had received my pilots license only a year earlier and this procedure should have been a no brainer. I finally located the beacon and landed safely and drove the rest of the way home. I was never so glad to be in that old crappy 200,000 mile rental car. Until you are in a bad situation, you will never know for sure how your mind will function under pressure. A good GPS would have cut down on the confusion a great deal. :eek:
Jim RV-9A wings Arkansas 90919
 
I was at the airport the morning of this accident. Down in Indianapoplis, the weather was really crappy. I can't believe it was much better up in Lafayette (~60 miles). For this guy to take off with a 600 foot ceiling is just insane. The visibility was less than a mile or two as well.

In 600 hours of VFR flying, I've had a few minor encounters with marginal VFR weather. If you fly in the Midwest much, you learn how to dance around fronts and storms in the summer or you don't fly much. I think it is important to set personal minimums for ceilings and visibility and stick to them. I don't mind a low ceiling as long as the visibility is at least 5 miles. Once the visibility goes below 5, I sit. It's not fun groping your way through the soup.

My RV-6 didn't have an A/P, but my Rocket does. With the cost of these things coming way down, I think it's a cheap insurance policy if you know when and how to use it.
 
Raised eyebrows

Well, my eyebrows are raised. I hope you really don't believe what you wrote. A good percentage of instrument rated pilots would be unsafe operating in IMC. IFR requires more than training. You must maintain proficieny, or the skill fades over time. Knowing what the attitude indicator is for, and using it when you suddenly find yourself in IMC are two different things. I wish I could post the "You have 138 seconds to live" article. It tells in a chilling way, what happened to the average non IFR pilot when encountering IMC in a simulator. You simply don't have very long to live!
Yes indeed... becareful out there!
Danny King
Beautiful Doll 80434







Jamie said:
Ok, this is probably going to raise a few eyebrows...but here goes:

Yes, I agree completely that VFR pilots should keep their butts on the ground when IMC conditions prevail, but if your airplane has gyros there is no excuse for losing it in the clouds, instrument rated or not.

Even if you're a VFR-only pilot, go up with a safety pilot and put on your foggles/whatever. Fly around, have your safety pilot put the aircraft in unusual attitudes and try to recover.

You should try to avoid it as much as possible...but if you fly often enough you're going to eventually get into some clouds or thick stuff (here in Atlanta the summer haze can cut visibility to less than a mile easily). Be prepared for it and when you do...get on the instruments.

An instrument rating should teach people procedures, not how to keep the right side of the airplane up (they should already know that). BTW: I worry sometimes about some IFR pilots who always depend on autopilots. I've met a few that have to make me wonder if they could keep ahead of the airplane if Otto were to go belly up. There have been plenty of IFR pilots who have flown VFR into IMC and bought the farm, so having an instrument rating doesn't guarantee your health.

Be careful out there folks!
 
Danny King said:
Well, my eyebrows are raised. I hope you really don't believe what you wrote. A good percentage of instrument rated pilots would be unsafe operating in IMC. IFR requires more than training. You must maintain proficieny, or the skill fades over time. Knowing what the attitude indicator is for, and using it when you suddenly find yourself in IMC are two different things. I wish I could post the "You have 138 seconds to live" article. It tells in a chilling way, what happened to the average non IFR pilot when encountering IMC in a simulator. You simply don't have very long to live!
Yes indeed... becareful out there!
Danny King
Beautiful Doll 80434

You hope I don't believe what I wrote? Which part, Danny? It looks like I agree with all your statements. My point is simply that we should all be prepared to keep our aircraft under control if we suddenly lose outside references to attitude. Going into IMC shouldn't be an automatic death sentence. We should practice for it even if we are only VFR guys.

We VFR pilots should also avoid IMC at all costs....please don't misunderstand what I was saying. I'm definately a firm believer in the fact that we should all wait and live to fly another day. Just ask anyone who has flown with me -- I'm a very conservative and cautious pilot. I'm not excusing the gentleman in the referenced article who took off and killed himself and his friend. He definately screwed up. I would never recommend a VFR/SVFR departure to anyone with prevailing IMC.

I suppose I'm lucky because I have pretty good (and free!!) access to Frasca-132 simulator, so I've done quite a bit of simulated instrument work. And yes, I'm a VFR-only pilot (for now), but for me feeling comfortable on instruments is a personal requirement for even day VFR flying.

What's wrong with believing folks should be prepared for all eventualities in flight? For me, it's on par with practicing for engine failures.

Kind Regards,
 
That's a great point Mickey. My first experience with this phenomenon took me by surprise and scared the bejabbers out of me. I was taking my Long-EZ to Oshkosh (because that's what they called it back then) and I wanted to arrive over Ripon right at 7:00 AM. So I left Indy at 5:00 AM in the morning. Everything started out great until I got out over the countryside and the horizon of lights disappeared. The Long-EZ did not have a very effective aileron trim so the airplane would continually fall off to the left or the right. I had to fight to keep the canard level for about 45 minutes until the sun started to rise. I learned a very important lesson that day.
 
VFR pilots taking off into IMC??????

To stay on point: VFR pilots taking off into IMC? It's a real bad idea; airplanes can kill you. How to protect your self: Training, skill, experience, currency, knowledge, operation within the regulations/operating limitations/ personal limitations and Judgment.

The last item, judgment, is hard to teach, the other parameters help form good decision-making but can't completely compensate for judgment. Good or bad judgment is not exclusively related to pilot time.

Yes, a VFR rated pilot taking off into IMC, who has developed a good instrument scan and is current might survive. Also a rusty, not current IFR pilot might not fair so well. It is a moot point, both are un-safe and illegal. However an IFR rating is a great rating. Your chance of survival from an inadvertent IMC encounter is better if you have more experience and training. Yes, you get rusty, but if you really have developed a good scan (cross check, interpret, control) from say 100 hours of IMC you will have more skill and control than a typical VFR pilot, who may have 1-5 hours total VFR "hood" time years ago. BTW, hood time and real IMC is different, there is no cheating in solid IMC. An IFR rating will make you a better pilot overall.

True Story: My first real IFR flight, post instrument check ride, I took off right into IMC after rotation. It was interesting. Even though I was current, well trained and a good amount of actual IMC time, I experienced "the leans" almost immediately. I trusted my instruments and climbed out without any problem. That was a real eye opener.

True Story two: Two friends, both VFR rated, who co-owned a Piper Colt. It was a nice clean plane and had a VFR panel with a T&B. One needed a BFR (now just called flight review). I have CFI ratings and on occasion do BFR's/Inst comp checks for friends. He was a good stick, glider pilot and wanted to do some instrument training on his BFR, so I obliged him. After getting the required T&G's and air-work out of the way, I gave him 2 hours under the hood. I would normally not train a pilot much more than an hour at a time, to avoid fatiguing them too much, especially early in the game. (If your CFI exhausts you, you are wasting your time and money. More short sessions are better than marathons. This applies to student pilots or private pilots starting inst training.) However he was a natural and flew "partial panel" very well. We did every maneuver in the book and covered all the basic inst skills (we could with needle-ball-airspeed), errors, unusual attitudes, wet compass lead/lag, VOR navigation. We did not do approach procedures but did talk "him down" on some simulated GCR/ASR approaches. It was night over sparsely populated areas, so this helped make the training closer to real IMC. The kicker, a few months later my two Colt friends told me of how they flew into solid IMC over the Cascade Mountains! :eek: The cloud layer they were over-flying climbed and closed in faster than they could climb. After entering IMC, they initially lost some control. They recovered and he got it straight and level. After getting their wits, they started a 180-timed turn, in IMC. Several minutes they flew out of it. The other pilot called out heading after rolling out, and they made short timed turns to get to the desired 180 heading. Having the other pilot call out heading helped the other concentrate on flying the plane and not having to move his head. I taught him not to move his head too much. Figuring out your heading with a wet compass in a turn is almost impossible. The trick is to estimate the change of heading, do timed turns (3deg/sec) and roll out level, wait, than check. Like the RV, the Piper Colt/Pacer is not a real stable plane. RV?s have near neutral roll stability and will build speed up REAL fast in an unusual attitude. After they told me the whole story, they thanked me for saving their lives. Well I was both happy it turned out well and pissed they got into the spot in the first place. :mad: In this case a little training, calm recovery and control of the plane saved their lives. The outcome could have not been so good. They were lucky. Cheers George
 
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Getting somewhat competent at needle, ball and airspeed can save your bacon someday. About 30 years ago, I came out of a three or four minute incident a hell of lot smarter than I had been about 5 minutes before. I can't overstate the difficulty of overcoming the panic that's trying take away your ability to think and fly the airplane, when you know if you don't perform you're going to die. I had been doing spins in the airplane and had removed the gyros so I would'nt break them. The electric turn and bank was still in the plane and working. That's all the gory details I'll give here, but a lesson was learned I've never forgotten.
 
Two issues

The 178 seconds to live article is an eye opener. My CFII spoke about that article a ton while we were motoring around for my 40 hours under the hood.

All good points in this thread. There are two issues at play for rated and non-rated instrument pilots venturing into IMC:

1)Hand/eye coordination and instrument interpretation skills.

The first can kill me if my skills are not up to snuff. I'll get behind, my scan can break down, I might miss something like engine gages, or miss a radio call. This is the first area where a VFR-only pilot can get into trouble. His/her scan is not tuned up, nor are the hands coordinated with what the eye is seeing. I remember my first attempts to fly under the hood: I was all over the sky, I was hyperventilating and overcontrolling. I did get it, eventually but the effort to keep it upright and navigate was very large. Once a pilot 'gets it', flying by the gages becomes as natural as flying is. This can (and does) get rusty, so profiency is key. Based on my performance during the first 5 hours of instrument instruction, makes me realize that if I had wandered into IMC before I had my instrument rating, I would have had a very difficult time keeping it upright AND navigating at the same time.

2)Spatial disorientation
This bad boy can trap any pilot any time, Inst rated or not. My Dad called it having "The Leans". I caught the leans three times. The first was during my first 100 hrs as a pilot. It was night, I was heading towards land over a dark ocean. It was CAVU. The lights on the shore were a brilliant line. All of a sudden, I blinked and they were travelling sideways. I did not have the feeling of leaning, the ship was straight and level, the shore was straight and level, but each time I blinked, the lights on the shore appeard to be travelling laterally to the side. My pulse raced, I sweated, but talked myself thru it. The second time I got the leans was during hood time with my inst instructor. I told him I had vertigo and he said, "Keep scanning, keep flying." It was hard, I complained, told him I felt sick, etc, but he never took the controls to allow me a reprieve, his theory was right on: Train the way you fly. I always fly alone, so fly myself out of it. The third time was in IMC, daytime. I was being vectored by approach control for the ILS. It was a bumpy ride due to mountainous terrain nearby, and for a split second during a long std rate turn to the left, I looked out the pilot's side window and spotted the ground thru a hole. When I looked forward into the milky white out the windshield, then back to the insts, it hit me Bam! The instruments said I was turning and getting tighter, by my mind said, "No way! You're level!. Keep it level or you'll die!" The nausea was overwhelming, I had an instant cold sweat and my heart rate went thru the roof. It took a herculean effort to believe the gages and roll level. I remember I shouted something out loud and forced myself to believe my attitude indicator. The Leans (or Vertigo) did not leave me instantly. Rather, it depleted slowly over time. By the time I was on the ILS, it was all gone. Until you've gone thru it, it's hard to describe. I've done tons of upset recovery and unusual attitude training, but I have never had vertigo in the process, in other words, the instruments always make sense to me, so I found it easy to right the ship. But with The Leans, the pilot must force himself to believe the gages or die.

I guess what I'm saying is there are two dark corners that will trick a VFR only pilot: knowing how to stay on the gages cold, and recognizing vertigo at it's onset and knowing how to escape it's grip (which, or course brings us back to Skill 1: knowing how to stay on the gages.)

So, heck yes, to be safe, train under the hood with a safety pilot. Not just for a few minutes 'till you're tired, but a 3 hour flight will all the radio calls, climbs and descents. And do it more than once. Or, you could do the same thing, the only exception is the safety pilot is a CFII and s/he signs your logbook, throw in some studying and a test. Bingo: you're IFR certified. Then you're legal to fly when all your mates are grounded by an overcast. You'll arrive to SnF or OSH days ahead of them.....

BTW, I forgot to mention: your insurance rates will go down. :D
Oh, and one more thing, achieving my instrument rating is way up there on the list of 'highs' in my life. But it isn't a one time deal: It gets repeated every flight I use it to get me from here to there. Staying safe and flying myself in weather to a destination give me a deep sense of satisfaction. Just like flying the perfect formation or the perfect loop or aileron roll. :p

Art
 
My eyebrows are at my hairline! The amount of hood time required for the private is absolutely minimal, and nowhere near enough to produce the instinctive, ingrained response you want in IMC. I'm strictly VFR and spend all my time in a decathlon these days. This aircraft has no gyros at all so my familiarity with them has faded considerably. I am CERTAIN that I would ball up a gyro equipped spam can in short order if I got into hard IMC. My personal rule for flying the decath is don't go unless the chance of encountering IMC is ZERO. I'd hate to think that having gyros would make me relax this rule.

Incidently, on the issue of simulators: A neighbor recently asked me to take him up for some acro. I explained to him that motion sickness and fear sometimes get in the way of the fun, but he insisted that he was a regular Tom Cruise on the PC flight simulator. Well, long story short, Maverick barfed.

Modern flight simulators are amazing at what they do, but they don't yet simulate the physical sensations (or lack thereof) and the brain freeze that a good dose of terror can cause.
 
Fear factor

Good observation, Szicree. Simulators are great training tools, but nothing prepares you for rockin and rollin in IMC, nor the fear that creeps into the picture at times. :eek:

I'm a staunch advocate of pilots getting their IFR ticket, especially for faster planes like RV's. Our planes can fly 200mph for over 3 hours. In traversing 600 miles, there's a good chance you can encounter some Wx. And yes, most times that Wx can be avoided. For those of us not yet retired, the pressures to get home after a weekend trip are pretty high. Before I had my inst rating, I remember that when I went anywhere, I would be continually checking Wx, wondering how easy it would be for me to get home. It made longer trips agonizing, and would distract me from the fun I was supposed to be having on the ground.

To me, it's getting maximum utility out of my ship by being able to switch from VFR flight to IFR. I will admit that most "IFR trips" I take are VFR for most of the enroute portion, but having the capability to fly IMC is a great asset. Scud running in a ship as quick as an RV is not a good idea, IMO, and I think that the pressure of getting back home to family and jobs can lure many of us down that dark alley.
 
Lots of good opinions and advice and experiences in this thread. Bottom line is get enough hood time to at least get you comfy and remain comfy with controlling your plane via instruments, should you inadvertantly get caught in IMC. If instrument flying is your goal, properly equip your plane and know how to use the stuff and stay proficient in the system.

I had two friends who's only real instrument time, after they got their ratings, was the comp check. A comp check requires less time under the hood than remaining current through actual IFR flight or hood time with a safety pilot. They are both dead now. One flew into a mountain in Pennsylvania and the other hit trees scrudding into an uncontrolled airport after breaking off an approach to a controlled airport.

Know your limitations and competence. It's better to be on the ground, wishing you were in the air, than to be in the air, wishing you were on the ground. Your wish will come true, either way.

Roberta
 
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